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You have a preference for abusive relationships. Interesting. Which do you enjoy the most, being the abuser or the victim?

Perhaps you can enlight me how you came to that strange conclusion?

Nope. True compromise requires both parties to give up something in order to only partially realize individual goals. Everyone loses. Because if one person agrees to only somewhat allow something contingent on the other giving up something, the other person has the right to (and will) demand giving up something in exchange for only partially satisfying those requests or demands. Plus, there's usually no way out of the compromise. It's a bad deal. And it's really bad because both parties will sneak around to find other ways of getting what they want, often at the expense of the other. When one partner honors the compromise agreement and the other goes outside the compromise to achieve a goal, the faithful partner will feel slighted and betrayed. It's not fair. The faithful partner won't feel honor-bound to the compromise, which means the faithless partner STILL loses.

Relational cheating is a good example--the expectation being that both partners give up freedom in exchange for certain commitments to each other. Mismatched libido, or biological changes over the course of a marriage, for instance, might cause a guy to feel he gave up his freedom for nothing, while the woman might feel she doesn't "owe" him anything despite any previous understandings regarding intimacy. He sees it as being unfair to him, so he cheats. She uses infidelity to leverage (blackmail) a divorce. Everyone loses: he his wife and half his possessions, she her husband and security.

In practice, compromise is all about appeasement and loss. It's used by one party to gain compliance from the other party. It's always a bad deal. Whoever initiates the compromise usually uses that leverage to achieve immediate goals such as compliance until it's expedient to abandon the agreement.

That's what makes compromise an abusive practice, because the one in power can always punish the partner who calls him out on faithless behavior. "I stopped sleeping with you because you came home late...AGAIN." "Ok, I work late to support you, your children, and pay for this nice house so YOU can be a stay-at-home mom. You won't cook food I like, you know I need intimacy to relax and get some sleep, and it's time for you to start thinking about just how important it is to you to maintain this lifestyle. Those other women mean nothing to me, but this is what happens if I can't let off a little steam. You might want to think about that next time you want to bust my balls for working late."

Maybe not that extreme, but most compromise follows a similar kind of pattern, and it's an abusive way to maintain a relationship.

What works better is simply figure out a way for everyone to win. You make me a sandwich, I'll give you money so you can make it and buy yourself a little something. We both have what the other wants and are willing to part with it. We both win. You can look at me giving up money as losing, but I don't care about the money. It doesn't really function as a loss. I need to eat. Money helps with that when I exchange it for something. We all win. I want to get married and have children, so does she. The children are ours. We both win.

But what if she doesn't want children but I do? That's a dealbreaker. I say "I think you are amazing and I would love to spend my life with you. Indeed the last year of our relationship has been the absolute best. But we don't agree on children, and that is really important to me. I hope we can always be good friends, and I know there's someone out there who is perfect for you." The door stays open, the relationship isn't COMPLETELY ruined, and you leave both of you open to getting what you want...even if that means it's not with each other. It looks like you've lost something, but really it's just that you agree that you have "no deal." You leave the relationship open to future opportunities and possibilities, which means even if you can't reach a deal you both still win.

When you work together to achieve something that is mutually beneficial, even if that means breaking up, you have a relationship that is open to winning and free of abuse.


Having said all that, "compromise" and "win-win" thinking are really semantics, because people use the word "compromise" when they actually mean "win-win." Not all compromise has what is best for both at heart, which leaves compromise open to abuse.

While I can forgive that, it's this statement that anyone would find disturbing. Obsessing over anything is unhealthy. One might say I obsess over music. Except music is my livelihood. If I still lived alone, one steady part-time gig alone would pay all my living expenses. Two band gigs a month will almost double that. A part-time teaching "day job" adds about another 2/3 of my original part-time salary. If I lived alone, I could pay off all my out-of-state student debt in 4-5 years making less than US $25k/yr. Not only that, but if I can add music licensing to my income, I could become potentially wealthy and have even more freedom to create.

There's a fine line between nurturing a special interest that could sustain you and your family and an unproductive obsession.

Obsessions are predominantly exclusionary. They carry a high cost without necessarily any benefit or return. Obsessing over another human being is especially frightening in that it requires objectifying that person. It means taking ownership of that person, even if it means sacrificing your own will or power to possess her.

The problem becomes that people are not really property. Fruitless obsessions, like an unemployed guitar prodigy who refuses to gig until it's "perfect," are unhealthy and detrimental both to the obsessed and the object of obsession. Unrequited love. Stalking. Harrassment. Kidnapping. Murder. Prison. Suicide. Regret. Depression. Self-harm. Post-traumatic stress. That is what obsession over love interets earn on both sides.

So...

With compromise, you end up either abusing someone or yourself becoming the victim.

With obsession, you're stuck somewhere among abusing someone, being abused yourself, or self-harm.

Which is it? Do you prefer being the abuser or the victim?

You have it all wrong. A compromise is typically that you will share somebody's interest, do something for them (without requiring anything in return), learn something to help your partner, or potentially, to show less interest in something that takes too much of your time. A compromise usually isn't a loss at all. For instance, if you want to go to place X and your partner wants to go to place Y, you can decide to alternate between them or visit both. When you do that compromise you show interest in place Y because your partner likes it. That's not a loss for you unless you absolutely hate that place. Another compromise might be if you like music X and your partner likes music Y, then you might listen to both, something that will broaden your horizons, so that is not a loss either.



That's all NT-garbage.



Sure, if you have the NT-garbage requirements from above, but count me out of that.



More NT-garbage.



Most people don't even know if they want children before meeting a suitable partner, so I wouldn't call that a deal breaker. Also, I think that if only one in the relationship wants children, and is prepared to do most of the work with them, a workable compromise might be to get them anyway.



I have absolutely no interest in such arrangements. To think it is a good idea to breakup instead of putting down some effort and make compromises, is a complete deal-breaker to me.



That's complete bull. ND obsessions are not about power or possessing somebody. They are about attachment.



I know what they are about, and where they lead if they are mutual. To happy relationships built on true love that lasts for life. Unlike your "open to win" relationships that end as soon as somebody found greener grass somewhere else.

Wow what have I started Ok please don't turn my thread into some AS/NT battle, that never gets anyone anywhere.....just saying...

I think we got a little off topic but to answer one of the previous posters, yes, we are going to see a counselor and have an appointment to see a couples counselor soon, I just worry that she might manipulate the counselor as well. This girl is not stupid....not by a long shot! She might play the fool but she only does it to come out on top.

Like I said she has had multiple affairs with me in the past, even while married. She even admitted to her ex husband being played like a fiddle. I watched as she destroyed their marriage and robbed him of almost everything he had. I was an idiot and went along with it, even though it didn't feel right. I thought she was mine and mine only and I found some comfort in that. Now that I'm looking at this all with a new eye, and after I had gotten her to admit to more than I ever wanted to realize was true, I'm pretty worried about our future.

At least I "woke up" before it was too late, like with her previous relationships. She always said I was the only one she had ever cheated with, ever! Said there was something about me...well I'm sure they had all heard the same words, looking back at it all. I actually feel bad for those guys. I even called her ex to say sorry (I was giving him the death stare in court) and wanted to know if he thought that she was ever unfaithful with him. I was trying to fish for clues in her behavior and he said as far as he knew she never cheated on him and that he thought we hooked up after the divorce was started....God I felt awful, he wasn't the "bad guy" she made him out to be, yet she drilled it into my head he was this horrible POS she fell for and got stuck in a bad marriage....I couldn't tell him the truth and didn't bother ruining his day when he had no idea and it was in the past anyway....

Now I wonder, am I the next one? It's so hard to convince myself she wont when she has so many times, with me. I saw how she lied to both them and me inorder to get what she wanted. I've been stepping back and shes cranked up the sex BIG TIME, like it's some kind of game, a tool to play with my emotions....it's so frustrating! I feel good right now, I ignored her moves when she was trying to get intimate before work...She tried so hard, it blows my mind! I don't understand why she wanted to have sex when we were just arguing like an hour before that, and I had just shut her out, gave her the cold shoulder, call it what you want...I pretended she was invisible and the more I tried the more she did aswell.....WTF is going on here?

I think if I wasn't being so "harsh" I'd be getting walked all over still, just like her ex. I give myself some credit for not giving in to her over and over again. I said some things that may have made her feel like s**t, but it was only the truth, things she's done to her exes while I was right there for it all and how that resembled what was going on with us now....It just hurts too much to let her keep doing it.

When you state it like that, I agree with the people that claimed you should get out of it.

I see. It's ok obsess over someone and harm either yourself or your partner as long as you're ND. It's ok to hurt people as long as it builds "attachment." Got it.

Just my own, personal, admittedly-biased, and totally unqualified opinion, but I think you need to get a new plan, Stan. Don't even wait for couples counseling, just hop on the bus, Gus.

Setting that aside, I'm going to switch to her POV. I do believe people can be better and there's a time/place for redemption. She needs to forget about relationships for a while and learn to not depend on a man for her identity. Wipe the slate clean, forget every man she ever knew up to this point, and straight start over. This is hard to do. More importantly, she needs to arrive at a place in her life where she can admit she has been hurtful and out-of-control. If she can be honest and, I can't emphasize this enough, FORGIVE herself, I'm sure she'd be a wonderful partner for any man.

I wonder if maybe she has a sexual addiction. See, I could totally handle a girl like that. Having my libido in my line of work is just not helpful, but I deal with it constructively without any moral compromises. But when dealing with an addiction, an abundance of sex within monogamy won't sort out what caused the cheating in the first place. That has to be dealt with before she can heal.

Which brings me to the problem of divorce. It's too easy. It provides an escape without correcting marital drama. It doesn't just end one marriage, but almost guarantees the next one will fail. She HAS to confront the reasons for her first failed marriage if she ever wants to succeed in marriage in the future. For that and for other reasons, I just won't get seriously involved with a divorced woman.

Ok one last question for ya guys, lets say the worst case scenario plays out and I gotta give her the boot...How should I go about this with out it being messy? I saw how it went down with her ex husband and that was horrible! Nothing I'd put on my own worst enemy. I work from home so I got that going for me so she couldn't come when I'm gone and take what ever shed like but how would I even propose this to her? I've already laid out the ultimatum but nothing seems to even be changing...like I said the only thing shes done is upped how much shes "putting out" to compensate for her sour attitude, or cry like crazy and lay on the guilt.

I know this is not gonna be easy to get out of. I know this is a long shot but what are the chances I could ask for the engagement ring back? It was passed onto me from family, 3 generations to be exact and is worth a pretty penny, but the sentimental value is irreplaceable I do got a good amount of "ammunition", if I need to fight dirty, but I really don't want it to come to that. But she has done so many things that were really immoral or even illegal and would certainly put her career at risk if I were to spill the beans. I would hate to use that against her, but would you guys think it would be fair to if it came down to it to get the ring back?

** I would never actually say anything, I would never do that to her, but might consider using it as a scare tactic if I need to... I just know how she is and I know she's gonna flip s**t when that day comes...

Short answer: Dig in and get ready...it's going to be ugly no matter what.

Slightly longer answer: grownup, civil people break amicably. I mentioned a hypothetical deal-breaker (having children), and it's basically you level with someone, be honest, be gentle, and at the end of the day stand behind your decision. My ex was very similar to yours except for the cheating. I didn't leave her because I didn't love her. I left her because, love or not, I didn't want to be miserable for the rest of my life. The relationship had ended a long time ago and neither of us wanted to admit it. Things got ugly. I had another ex I left because I graduated from college and our lives were just going different directions. Unlike my previous gf, she was very mature and took it well. We still loved each other and cried a lot. We're still friends, too. But that's how breakups happen in GrownUp Land. My previous gf and your SO don't live in GrownUp Land. Expect bullet holes in your LED Jumbotron and broken dishes.

What you might consider is calling the police and having an officer present while she takes her things. Just explain the situation and let them know you just want someone there to keep the peace. Have one or two of your guy friends on hand, also, just in case, but by all means make sure you don't talk to her and neither do your friends. It might be overkill, but better safe than sorry.

Bad news on the ring. Engagement rings are considered gifts. You don't really get to ask for those back. You CAN just pretend not to know that, explain that the ring is an heirloom, and politely ask for it back. If she treats it like a gift and refuses, you're out of luck.

When I broke it off with my ex, she wanted to return the ring. I refused to touch that Mickey Mouse pawn shop POS. She asked me what she should do with it. I said take it back to the pawn shop and buy herself something nice with the money for all I care. Not helpful, I know, but just letting you know I've been there and can relate to what you're going through. So good luck on the ring!

The other problem you have is you were shacking up with her. NEVER a smart move, and I don't think I have to explain it to you why because you're living it. Just mark it down for lesson learned and be sure not to repeat it. All I can tell you is good luck dividing up anything you might have purchased as property in common.

I used to do paralegal work back in the day. I heard about this guy working through divorce proceedings when the going got really rough. At one point he agreed to this ugly-massive settlement, really sudden, too. The lawyer was royally p!$$3d off. Asked him wtf he's doing, and he says "I don't care about the money, don't care about the stuff. I just want the b!tch out of my life."

At least if you're married, you've got lawyers and a judge between you to make sure neither one of you get screwed. Now you've got a big mess on your hands because you've lived together for so long. I hate it for you. All I can say is good luck. In my opinion, I think you should do whatever it takes to get rid of her. It might really suck right now, but better having to part with some cash and some personal property than being miserable for the foreseeable future.

No, you didn't get it.

Let's see if I "got" your NT ways. For an NT, a relationship is just a tit-for-tat game of exchanging favours. It's cheaper and more convenient to have a partner to exchange sexual favours with (and pay her with gifts) than to use a prostitute. An FWB is somewhere in between. She might not be available when you need her. That's also why you form "exclusive alliances", so you can make sure you always get your sexual favours when you need them . Because of this crude tit-for-tat game you prefer, you have no sense for passion, so you think obsessions are about harm and control. Got it.

Feel free to clarify any time. I'm just going by what you said. You believe obsessions are healthy. Most people would find that frightening, including many aspies.

I knew a guy once who obsessed over a girl and built an "attachment." She was "attached" to him, alright. So attached that both times she tried to break up with him, she felt she'd either have to go back to him or end up dead. I helped show her a life without him. His "obsession" and "attachment" earned him a night in jail. Lucky for her that was enough to send a strong message.

Many women aren't so lucky. For many, "obsession" and "attachment" means either death or a long life of misery hoping and wishing for death.

No, thank you.

Things go wrong in the NT scenario too. Just look at all the wife beatings. Or the current thread, indeed, which has a girl that plays it all the NT way.



For me it always went good, and for the girls too. No complaints from any of us.

I feel like this is part of the problem. It's like you almost forced yourself to love her. Loving someone who has these kinds of issues is difficult even if your madly in love with someone. It's not the fault of either of you it's just that you are no longer compatible

Think about why you are scared about letting the relationship go. Is it not wanting to be without her or not wanting to be without a relationship?

Well I know I got no interest in a messy breakup, in fact I'm really trying hard to avoid that. I've been trying to keep my distance while still being "there for her" on a friendship kind of level but she keeps trying to have sex and I give in more than I should. I don't know if she's feeling desperate and using that to keep me around or what...She's always used sex as a way to get me to give in. What ever it is I've been finding it kinda difficult to be somewhat personable with her with out her taking it as "everything is alright" and she'll start talking about this fairy tale romantic future together...

I'd like to think she's getting the hint, but a part of me thinks she's still obsessing about me being her "night in shinning armor" keeps dropping lines like "I'd do that for you" when there's a love-martyr that dies for the women on tv, something tells me it's still some kind of game to her still. I don't know what to think honestly.

I'm trying to gear up for this the best I can, starting to gather my belonging's and putting them away from hers, got a few guy's ready to come chill if I need them...etc but I'm still worried about how to break it to her. I don't wanna lead her on any longer but I don't wanna just "throw her to the wolves" either. It sucks and I feel bad but what do I do? I wanna be civil and help her try to find a place so she has a good place to land after it all, but she still is insisting on staying here as of now. She isn't trying real hard to "settle in" any more but isn't making any efforts to get out either.

So that kind of leads me to think she can tell this isn't working. Everyone I've talked to in person about this says it's as obvious as ever, and I knew that, how could she still not see that? Is it that she doesn't want to? I'm miserable around her and her around me. Now I'm making the decision to stop having sex with her all together, I know that will strike a nerve with her because she always resorts to that when the going gets tough. So I guess well see how she reacts to that after a few days.

And just to be clear, I'm not leading her on. I know I mentioned it but it's more like I told her straight up "this isn't working at all, and I don't see it working unless something really changes" but nothing has changed yet, she still hasn't taken responsibility for what shes done (I'm talking about the crappy things I've called her out on and she even admitted to, not the speculation she may be cheating ). I can't be with someone I don't trust and she's proven to me that what we have is a foundation built on lies and deception, same as all her other relationships.

She's admitted to me that she "faked it" when she came to my doorstep crying, saying she's in an abusive relationship, which ended in me going to jail because this guy had caught us together, and me and him ended up getting into a fight and I spent some time in jail. She had me so convinced that she was this poor victim, when really me and him were the victims!

They both lied through their teeth on the police report saying I was the one who showed up when they were having dinner together, when really it was me and her that were together when he showed up and caught us sleeping together. So I sat in jail and she never even reached out to me. She actually left the state after the two of them didn't work out either ( go figure huh?). I've got her confession recorded too so if I ever need to use it I can.

I don't feel bad for recording her confessing that incident either because she had left me to rot in jail that whole time with out ever even trying to make it right by telling the police what really happened. I couldn't fight the case it was two against one, so I was screwed no matter what. I just can't believe she was BS'ing me the whole time about how he was so abusive...She was just trying to get me via pity party! She actually faked crying so I would feel bad for her, now that scares me, if she can do that to get what she want's, what else is she capable of? This is the kind of s**t I'm talking about here people, it's more than just that too, but I wont bore you guys with the details.

Honestly I'm not afraid of being alone at all. I've know I can always find some one new, that is better to me, and that time inbetween will just give me a chance to focus on my self for once. Honestly what I'm more afraid of is her reaction when I drop iit to her. This woman can take matters way to far, in a heart beat. I think she has some kind of personality disorder or something TBH.