Self-loathing and relationships

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Where did anyone say any of this?

If that's the message you're receiving then your interpretation of the posts in this thread is distorted by your depression.

And not only that, there's a particular member (who I personally dislike a lot btw but it's mutual) who even compared them to abusive people, he/she equated depressed/low-esteem people to abusive people and bullies; I think this is unfair and does no good.

I guess the OP and another member, not you.

I am defintely with the bunnyb/Sabreclaw camp though.

Thanks, XFG! This thread is well underway of accomplishing the exact goal I had. I’ve been frustrated by locked threads that got very close to this subject, so I think it’s about time we discussed it APART from users who inspired it. They know who they are and are more than welcome to participate, but I’m more concerned with at least having the freedom to keep a good thing going. This way, those of us who really are interested can do just that.

Kara: I’m not sure if dealing with depression in a positive way has anything to do with it, but I’ve been absolutely delighted in reading your posts here. I have strongly disagreed with you in the past, even been offended sometimes, and a lot of times just not able to say anything due to lack of time or just circumstance. If we merely have common ground here, then great. If the change is from overcoming depression to any degree, then AWESOME!! !

Bunny: it’s not an attack on anyone. I think it’s a source of problems that some here have experienced, but for diff reasons we haven’t been allowed to get it all out in the open in the most positive way. I want to change that. The users you refer to are just as welcome here as anyone, but WILL NOT request the thread be locked. The mods will do their job, and if a user violates TOS, HE (or she) will dealt with. The whole community doesn’t deserve to be punished just because one person has a problem with it.

Strictly my opinion here, and if I’m wrong, it’s ok. But I feel that sparking a good discussion only to shut it down after losing absolute control of it is abusive to others. Once for emotional well-being is one thing. But a pattern of it? I might have been the first to observe this, but I’m not alone. I’m simply allowing others a voice in something that affects many of us.

But to answer you more directly: this isn’t really about depression. MY point was addressing a range of self-destructive behaviors that prevent someone from forming relationships by avoiding them or that drive people away. There are any number of issues that cause that, but I’m limiting my topic to this one because there seems to be more interest in it.

One need not even be depressed. A self-destructive person may be perfectly happy. An alcoholic may be distressed that he can’t stop drinking. But another guy might enjoy being drunk so much that he has no desire whatsoever to stop, even as his liver shrivels, he gets the shakes, and his skin turns yellow before he finally slips into his final coma. One person might want intervention if anyone cares enough to convince him there’s another way. For the other person, this is so ingrained into his lifestyle that taking it away might actually be seen as cruel. Neither of these guys love themselves. But only one of these might actually be depressed, whereas the other is GLADLY hurting himself.

Depression is a whole other topic.

By no means do we devalue someone for being depressed or in a cycle of self-loathing. We care enough about the person going through it that we want to explore the root of the problem and attack it to find workable solutions.

I wasn't referring only to my posts. I've read this entire thread and nowhere in it has anyone said anything that bunnyb/Sabreclaw alleges.

If any of us wanted to "punch depressed people in the face," with our posts then we'd do it instead of posting positivity and sound advice regarding love/dating/relationships/friendships and other social interactions when you're in a very depressed state of mind.

If people are ignorant of how their depression is unattractive or not conducive to a happy healthy friendship or relationship and that they're better off working on themselves in the short term so that they're better able to have relationships in the long term, then they need to hear & learn those things from people who've already been there, done that, experienced it, and are in a position to advise them on it.

No one has been hurtful or negative. Everyone has offered genuinely positive real world workable advice.

To anyone reading this thread who is suffering through depression and negative self-talk and cognitive distortion, I hope you get the help you need to start to think and feel differently. It is possible to come out of the other side of depression, you don't have to feel this way forever if you can find effective help. For some people it's medication, for some people it's therapy, for some people it's diet and lifestyle changes, for some people it's discovering meditation and mindfulness, or a combination of factors. Whatever works for you on your personal journey, I hope you find it.

I've been parroting the same thing here for years, so: Cosigned.

I just want people to know it's possible to get better. It's hard to have hope when depressed, I can remember what it felt like. I want others to be able to have hope for their future. It's not easy to fight depression and I can't lie about that, it takes work and effort, but it is work and effort that is worth it and can provide demonstrable results. I'm not permanently cured or anything like that, I still get low moods sometimes...but I have skills now that I didn't have before to cope with those low moods. I take much better care of myself now than I used to, I am a healthier person all around, and so dealing with my depression is possible. I learned how to value myself enough to get help when I need it and to not feel embarrassed or broken for needing help sometimes. It is a process and I am just farther along that process than some of the people here and I want to share what has helped me get better.

I'm sorry my participation in this thread has been seen as an attack, I really didn't intend to hurt anyone with what I said.

I have a similar story I've been sharing here for 5+ years. I do consider myself more permanently cured as I've never slipped into such a deep depression as I was in ~6 years ago. I just have minor ups and downs like everyone else. I've shared how I used everything from pharmaceuticals to meditation and that in the end the more permanent solution for me has been diet/supplements/exercise etc.

It just seems absolutely bizarre that anyone suffering from depression wouldn't express any sort of desire to treat or overcome it. That they wouldn't want to try things until they figured out one or more solutions that work for them.

No need for an apology, IMO. People have only offered helpful advice from their personal life experiences here and there are others who have a lot to learn from them. If they interpret people trying to help them as being kicked when they're down then it's only as a result of their own distorted thinking and they need to reflect on that and realize that if anyone here wished them any ill will they wouldn't be making such an extraordinary effort to spend their time and energy trying to help them.

edit: FWIW, my last remaining grandparent died yesterday and I was at the care home with her body for 5 hours before the funeral home could come to collect her. She was 96. It's sad and I'll grieve, but I'm not sinking into a deep depression over it. Because of the things I've learned and done, my capacity to deal with stress, sadness, negativity, depression etc is so much greater and I can simply accept life events like these for what they are and carry on living. I'm sharing this because those who haven't yet figured out how to overcome their depression can learn from my shared experiences and realize that it's entirely possible to not only overcome their current state of mind, but to maintain a better one, even when sad things happen. I'm living proof and I'm not some special snowflake of a different human being than they are. They just need to decide that they want to change, and then try things until they figure out what path works for them, and under no circumstances ever give up on themselves no matter the setbacks along the way.

I'm sorry it seems that way, too. But I also think you're telling the truth. Don't shy away from it. Please keep participating. I don't think you've done anything wrong.

FTR, I understand how emotional this can be for some people, so I'm not surprised that some prefer to respond by lashing out. I usually just let those comments go and ignore them because no response I make is really going to fix it. There's nothing anyone can say that will convince some people, and there are the occasional folks who thrive on the negative attention. Don't feed 'em.

This wasn't really supposed to be about depression, but I do recognize that depression is often behind it. I choose to overlook that for the simple reason that it's a Catch-22. You can't change yourself or overcome depression because you can't find love; you can't find love because you can't overcome depression. When I encounter that in my OWN life, and ask anyone who knows me IRL about my depressive states, I look at it as a BS situation. As in: I can't have what I want because it's mutually exclusive with something else? BS. Eff that. I'm happier without either. And because my focus is on something attainable that actually MATTERS, I'm clear of my depression AND the unattainable object that's fueling the depression. And since the depression is what's crippling me in the first place, suddenly whatever had just been unattainable is OBtainable. Now, sure, these are easy words to tell someone, and "words are wind," but that's helped me more often than not.

For me, what has made the most difference with depression is understanding that it's "all in my head." Like, LITERALLY all in my head. I don't mean imaginary. I mean a very REAL cascade of neurological chemical reactions that give me dark, brooding sensations. I know that medication might make it all go away. But I've chosen to embrace it with the understanding that it has no basis in external reality. It's just something in my brain that's gotten screwed up or probably was always screwed up. Rather than letting it feed on me, I feed on it. The dark places it takes me fuels my creativity. Sometimes that leads to places of light, sometimes it leads to the abyss. But either way I'm focused and productive, and the sense of purpose extinguishes the ugliness I feel inside.

It's like I give it nothing to feed off of, and I'm starving it while I feed off of it; the opposite, I think, of what probably most people do. And then suddenly it's GONE while I'm on a roll, and then I get depressed because I'm not depressed anymore!! ! And no, I'm not trying to make light of something that's horrible. These depressive spells hit for weeks at a time, and I mean can't get out of bed bad. Like skipping work and not calling in bad. Like, if I didn't force myself to go teach two classes a day I wouldn't have made it past week 2.

No one is downplaying the struggles of depression. No one is saying that anything "in your head" isn't real. Or at least I'M not saying it. But no one will convince me that taking control of your own depression, attitudes, ability, etc. isn't your own responsibility. I embrace my moods and imbalance. I embrace my darkness, my sorrow, my grief, my anger, my pain because I find beauty born in it. That's my choice. If you use medication, that's another choice you can make. If you see a therapist, that's your choice. If you manage it, eradicate it, whatever in dealing with it, those are choices. If you do absolutely nothing about but wallow in it, which is what I'm liable to do if I have the free time without other obligations, that is another choice. But you aren't compelled to let it control you.

Another thing I want to point out & share about is that depression impacts online relationships and friendships, too.

I used to have an online friend from a different forum over 10 years ago. As far as online friends go, we were close. There came a point in my depression where he excommunicated me and before doing so asked me if I wanted to bring him down with me. Of course my answer was no, and I understood why he couldn't allow my negative influence to impact his thoughts and life any more than it had. We haven't spoken since. He was a good online friend, but like the old adage says, "If you love something, set it free." So, I accepted that our friendship had run it's course.

I'm sharing this because even though this is a support forum, others' negativity does affect other people reading their words. People here would rather suggest ways for depressed people to heal than tell them they're not welcome here. But there still needs to be a point where people accept personal responsibility for what they put out on the forums and to online friends and decide not to be such an anchor on others, to shift into a mode of treatment and recovery from their darkest period instead. Even internet forums are a form of social interaction and there are certain "unwritten rules," that people do need to be made aware of if they're not.

I'm not suggesting that no one vents, only that they make an effort to be on an upward trending trajectory with their mindset while they go through their ups and downs vs. simply allow down or rock bottom to be their permanent state. There is a LOT of support on these forums & I'm sure we all wish that those who need the most support would make the decisions and take the actions that start to help themselves.

bunny: The problem I've had is most often those threads happen to be the most active ones, and for good reason. The problems they share I really do believe are legit problems. We want to help anyone and everyone that comes here. We do make every effort to be nice, although there are a few exceptions and even I'm guilty of becoming impatient. Yes, I understand you should stay out of a thread if there's nothing nice to say. But that's not what's happening. We participate in a hot thread because we're genuinely interested in what's being discussed. We avoid saying mean, ugly things. We offer solutions. But we feel like we're always being given the finger. I actually HAVE been attacked just on the basis of where I live. We keep trying to have a civil discussion and help. When those threads turn interesting and outgrow what the OP originally approached us with, they get locked.

Not just once. It seems like almost every time. Bullies are frequently guilty of this. If they can't control the discussion and keep the attention, they break it up. They ridicule, destroy, attack, whether physically, verbally, or otherwise. They are contemptuous towards others. You can play the victim all you want. Even more understandable is if you REALLY ARE a victim. It's not uncommon for the abused to grow into an abusers themselves, for victims to become victimizers. You start a good thing, lose control of it, and burn it to the ground when it's no longer about you.

Another problem is that once you start a thread, you lose ownership of it immediately. You make that first post and you hand it over to the community. It's unfair to violate community rules, so, sure, some censorship is bound to happen. But acting like you are the only one who has any rights to a thread is unfair, also. If you can't handle the feedback from your ideas, keep them to yourself. If you put something out there, be prepared that anything can happen. Take what you like, leave the rest. And yes, I'm prepared to take my own advice for the purpose of THIS thread.

One of the greatest geniuses in entertainment, IMO, is Jerry Springer. Watch him sometime if you never have before. He starts his show, gently nudges his guests towards conflict, agitation, and contention, then steps back and lets the hatred spin. Jerry always keeps the shows focused on his guests and, really, his audience. You almost barely even know he's there most of the time. Oh, he'll come back at the end of the show reminding everyone to love each other, but the show is never about Jerry.

A good thread is never really about the OP. Yes, you come for advice, validation, empathy, or whatever it is. But it will tend to take a life of its own. You have to understand that not everyone who reads it responds in the forum. It might have started about YOU, but what about the other guy having the same exact problem too scared to speak up? And he tries one thing and it works for him. Or someone whose friend is going through the exact same thing. Or someone else shows up and just wants to vent. Or someone has a completely different POV and disagrees with you or someone else. I'm here for the fights and the makeups, the civil discourses and the hot topics. I'm here for people who need help and for those who want to prove me wrong. I don't have to push people around or dominate my own thread.

It's that exact behavior that worries me. I'm not saying a depressed person is a bully because he's depressed or hates himself. I'm saying he's a bully because, for WHATEVER REASON, he holds other people in contempt and acts contemptuously towards them. If depression is the cause, attack it. If self-loathing is the cause, attack it. If it's anything else, attack that. I'm not hating on someone for being depressed or for self-hate. I wouldn't call a depressed person an abuser solely on the basis of being depressed. I will call a depressed person an abuser if that person abuses someone, regardless of the cause.

And if someone is effectively acting abusively, and I DON'T CARE WHY--but if they are indeed acting that way and purposefully killing threads, right... I DON'T have to read those threads.

I'll start one myself.

^ Extremely well said. I concur.

At this point, with certain people, I'd be happy to hear their motivation to try various things to treat & overcome their depression is primarily to prove to the rest of us which methods don't work for them.. as it would mean they are in fact Trying something, and then, maybe, just maybe, one or more of the things they expect not to work for them does end up working out.

No, I assume depressed people are hurting....deeply.

But, my pragmatic side knows there's only so much a "regular" person can do to help a depressed person without getting stuck in the "Bog of Eternal Stench."

It's a very careful balance between catering to the needs of the sick person, and recognizing the abilities and limits of the non-sick to deal with those needs. If anything, I have too much empathy for everyone.

So XGF, you have read the thread and do not see it as personal. Well you are the only person to think that. Everyone else who has posted knows exactly who it is aimed at. But it's OK. I now understand that if someone is unpopular / irritating, it's OK to obliquely bag them and use derogatory terms in reference to them under the guise of 'helping'. I'm not sure how much more 'help' either of them deserve though.

You say your aware of how difficult it is for a 'regular person' not to get stuck in the bog of eternal stench, well in this case it's simple, regular people don't need to post hurtful comments. They don't need to express their frustration and dissatisfaction; they can just walk away. But no, they are frustrated that they have not managed to change the behaviour of the members in question so it escalates to highly emotive words and those words have great capacity to hurt.

Now people may say what do I know, well, I happen to have a couple of letters after my name. They are BSc Psych. Who would have thunk it huh! I used to work in acute psych. I have walked out on rooftops and talked people out of jumping. I've been sort of shot at by a guy with paranoia when I was making a home visit. I say sort of because he swore he was aiming at the car not me. Personally I think he was just a bad shot. I've also found people hanging, exsanguinated and OD'd. I know how self-loathing/depression effects people. I can tell you that tough love is not a recognised therapeutic approach and that in my qualified opinion, this thread has the potential to be very damaging to the people it's aimed at. But don't let me stop y'all from 'helping' as you see fit, I just hope nobody gets pushed too far. Now I'm walking away from this because I recognise I cannot change the behaviour of other people in this thread and as tempting as it is to use emotive words to try and provoke them, I'm not going to.

I really don't understand the hostility directed at me here. I have been depressed (to the point of being self-injurious and suicidal) and I survived it because I managed (with help) to change some of my behaviour and thinking patterns, and now I want to help other people survive it. It's that simple. Why is that seen as an attack? I have lived through an experience and when I see someone else living through a similar experience, I feel prompted to share what helped me get through my experience. Is that so strange?

I'm really confused by some of the reaction to this thread.