Time to be brutally honest with sperm donor seeking friend?
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's a bit rough in your eyes that women require sperm to have babies, whether or not they're lesbians?
I think it's a bit rough too to be honest, because I wish women didn't need to obtain sperm to become parents.
It's also rough that men need to obtain eggs.
Obviously that's biological and there's nothing we can do about it but try to support women who want to parent, all of whom have equal human rights to have children. I'm not aware of any laws saying that only certain people are allowed to have children, either biologically or by adoption. I'm especially unaware of laws saying that we can or should discriminate based on a person's sexual orientation or access to sperm in the traditional way.
While no laws exist, there are common sense choices that should be taken. Someone with no means to pay for a child for example is one of the people who I would deny a child if I ever ran a sperm bank or clinic. When medical professionals need to get involved to conceive a child on someone else's behalf as there is no other option, then they should have a moral duty of care for the yet to be born child too. Single people especially approaching them for help need to be vetted to ensure they're not just doing it to tick a box or for social status.
IsabellaLinton wrote:
"IVF and sperm donors are options of last resort for couples struggling to conceive, not a first choice."
- But it's still a choice for couples, whether it's their first choice or their last choice. Again you're suggesting that people shouldn't have the choice of parenting unless they also want / can have a partner. Raising a child and being in a relationship with another adult are two different situations with two sets of skills. Many people are aromantic and have no interest in being married or in a romantic union. Some people are asexual and don't want a partner because there's an expectation of sexual intimacy. Some people have suffered relationship trauma or relationship abuse / domestic abuse, and they don't want to be vulnerable again. I'm not sure how this relates to their ability / right to raise a child. Parenting isn't romantic or sexual. It doesn't involve dependence on another adult, or legal obligations such as marriage certificates and the chance of divorce.
- But it's still a choice for couples, whether it's their first choice or their last choice. Again you're suggesting that people shouldn't have the choice of parenting unless they also want / can have a partner. Raising a child and being in a relationship with another adult are two different situations with two sets of skills. Many people are aromantic and have no interest in being married or in a romantic union. Some people are asexual and don't want a partner because there's an expectation of sexual intimacy. Some people have suffered relationship trauma or relationship abuse / domestic abuse, and they don't want to be vulnerable again. I'm not sure how this relates to their ability / right to raise a child. Parenting isn't romantic or sexual. It doesn't involve dependence on another adult, or legal obligations such as marriage certificates and the chance of divorce.
But would you want a virgin becoming a parent when they are completely blinkered to how sex works? Perhaps it's just mother nature at work?
IsabellaLinton wrote:
"The child's rights trump the parents' rights"
OK, so by that token does it mean that overweight, unhealthy, or insolvent parents, or married couples with disabilities shouldn't be allowed to have children? Do couples need to pass a test to have children? Do people come inspect their homes and lives to allow pregnancy? Are children taken from parents if the parents are overweight or bipolar, or if they break up? And when one parent (or both) walks out on the relationship and the child, what recourse does that child have?
OK, so by that token does it mean that overweight, unhealthy, or insolvent parents, or married couples with disabilities shouldn't be allowed to have children? Do couples need to pass a test to have children? Do people come inspect their homes and lives to allow pregnancy? Are children taken from parents if the parents are overweight or bipolar, or if they break up? And when one parent (or both) walks out on the relationship and the child, what recourse does that child have?
The rights of someone who is completely defenceless (like a child) will always warrant more weight than someone who is far more socially aware and wiser (like a parent). Kids get taken off parents all the time and I assume do in fact get treated preferentially by courts.
Conceiving naturally allows anyone to have kids and rightly so. Conceiving via unnatural methods and medical procedures however gives a green light as far as I'm concerned to start probing into the lives of the people seeking such a service as they are after all very heavily regulated. The heavily regulated third party is literally just that. They are completely separate from the parent and potential child and know nothing of the parents back story.
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I hope you don't think I'm arguing. I just find the ethical debate very interesting.
It gets more complicated the more you think about it
Nades wrote:
While no laws exist, there are common sense choices that should be taken. Someone with no means to pay for a child for example is one of the people who I would deny a child if I ever ran a sperm bank or clinic. When medical professionals need to get involved to conceive a child on someone else's behalf as there is no other option, then they should have a moral duty of care for the yet to be born child too. Single people especially approaching them for help need to be vetted to ensure they're not just doing it to tick a box or for social status.
A person's financial security is considered when they apply for IVF / adoption. I'm not suggesting that people who can't afford children should be first in line, just that it shouldn't constitute an automatic dismissal.
Nades wrote:
But would you want a virgin becoming a parent when they are completely blinkered to how sex works? Perhaps it's just mother nature at work?
I don't understand this question. Why would it matter if a parent was a virgin or "blinkered to how sex works" ? I don't understand the relevance of sexual history, to parenting.
_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Nades wrote:
While no laws exist, there are common sense choices that should be taken. Someone with no means to pay for a child for example is one of the people who I would deny a child if I ever ran a sperm bank or clinic. When medical professionals need to get involved to conceive a child on someone else's behalf as there is no other option, then they should have a moral duty of care for the yet to be born child too. Single people especially approaching them for help need to be vetted to ensure they're not just doing it to tick a box or for social status.
A person's financial security is considered when they apply for IVF / adoption. I'm not suggesting that people who can't afford children should be first in line, just that it shouldn't constitute an automatic dismissal.
Nades wrote:
But would you want a virgin becoming a parent when they are completely blinkered to how sex works? Perhaps it's just mother nature at work?
I don't understand this question. Why would it matter if a parent was a virgin or "blinkered to how sex works" ? I don't understand the relevance of sexual history, to parenting.
I think it should be an automatic dismissal if the income is really low.
I also think it's cheating nature for someone who has never had sex to become pregnant or conceive. My personal experience of later life virgins is that they seem naive and poorly equipped emotionally to deal with a child. They are effectively stuck in the cooties stage of life and just don't know how to give proper advice to a child on the subject. Likewise someone who is an older virgin for being very picky with members of the opposite sex might pass on their poor view of others to their child.
Nades wrote:
[...] I also think it's cheating nature for someone who has never had sex to become pregnant or conceive. [...]
Have you really never heard of "parthenogenesis"? It is real, it is natural, and it is not "cheating".
Nades wrote:
I also think it's cheating nature for someone who has never had sex to become pregnant or conceive. My personal experience of later life virgins is that they seem naive and poorly equipped emotionally to deal with a child. They are effectively stuck in the cooties stage of life and just don't know how to give proper advice to a child on the subject. Likewise someone who is an older virgin for being very picky with members of the opposite sex might pass on their poor view of others to their child.
Without getting graphic, what do you constitute as sex or being a virgin? Are you saying a lesbian or gay man can't adopt / do IVF / surrogacy, because they can't teach their child about hetero penetration? Somehow I don't think you'd want them to teach the basics of gay sex. The child might not have the same orientation as their parent, either way. And again, what about people who don't want a relationship? A perfectly suitable, responsible, financially-secure candidate comes along but should be disqualified because they haven't had sex with someone? How exactly is this determined? Are there physical exams? What about people who can't have sex for physical reasons? This is just such a strange statement I don't know what to make of it.
My parents were hetero and married. Neither one of them taught me about sex. They never mentioned sex or anything about sex to me in my entire life. Nothing about abstinence, dating safety, birth control, or even how babies were made. Absolutely nothing. Likewise my mother never told me what a period was. I knew from reading but she never had "the talk" with me, or told me anything about puberty, body changes, or what to expect. I grew up before the internet and couldn't google. I was mute so didn't ask friends. I managed just fine to get from childhood to maturation, because I read books.
_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles
Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
[...] I also think it's cheating nature for someone who has never had sex to become pregnant or conceive. [...]
Have you really never heard of "parthenogenesis"? It is real, it is natural, and it is not "cheating".That doesn't apply to humans though.
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Nades wrote:
I also think it's cheating nature for someone who has never had sex to become pregnant or conceive. My personal experience of later life virgins is that they seem naive and poorly equipped emotionally to deal with a child. They are effectively stuck in the cooties stage of life and just don't know how to give proper advice to a child on the subject. Likewise someone who is an older virgin for being very picky with members of the opposite sex might pass on their poor view of others to their child.
Without getting graphic, what do you constitute as sex or being a virgin? Are you saying a lesbian or gay man can't adopt / do IVF / surrogacy, because they can't teach their child about hetero penetration? Somehow I don't think you'd want them to teach the basics of gay sex. The child might not have the same orientation as their parent, either way. And again, what about people who don't want a relationship? A perfectly suitable, responsible, financially-secure candidate comes along but should be disqualified because they haven't had sex with someone? How exactly is this determined? Are there physical exams? What about people who can't have sex for physical reasons? This is just such a strange statement I don't know what to make of it.
My parents were hetero and married. Neither one of them taught me about sex. They never mentioned sex or anything about sex to me in my entire life. Nothing about abstinence, dating safety, birth control, or even how babies were made. Absolutely nothing. Likewise my mother never told me what a period was. I knew from reading but she never had "the talk" with me, or told me anything about puberty, body changes, or what to expect. I grew up before the internet and couldn't google. I was mute so didn't ask friends. I managed just fine to get from childhood to maturation, because I read books.
I would consider a virgin as someone who has had zero or next to zero sexual encounters and have no interest in having one for one reason or another.
Having the end result of what should be a stable sexual relationship that has been worked on for a couple of years via a laboratory instead is the equivalent of cheating on an exam from my perspective.
Granted hetrosexual parents break up all the time and many never have "the talk" with their kids but a parent who conceived a child via a lab because he/she is afraid of sex/not into the opposite sex/doesn't have time for relationships or just made themselves bottom of the pile somehow isn't going to pass on objective sex ed to kids or even healthy views on others in general.
Virginity for physical reasons too, I don't think that matters as they can't have sex even if they try and doesn't amount to a persistent and long term avoidance of the sex by choice.
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