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hyperlexian
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08 Jun 2011, 8:33 am

MCalavera wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

why not just use a legitimate source of counselling that doesn't involve manipulating and seducing women, then? there are many of them out there.

What manipulation exactly? Not all PUA stuff is about manipulating. Unless your definition of manipulation is so broad that one could argue that women manipulate men all the time..

i don't recall stating that women manipulating men was a good thing. if women had an established program that promotes such intent, i would be arguing against it just as strongly. but that does not exist. there definitely isn't an industry like PUA designed for women.

and you didn't answer my question - if personal growth or development is the goal, why not use a program that helps a person in a positive way, without the PUA aspect? it doesn't make logical sense, unless the goal is to get laid. i get the feeling that the supposed positives of these programs are actually smoke and mirrors intended to distract.

MCalavera wrote:

Seducing women? What is wrong with that? Sometimes, for some men, the only way to get a lover/wife is through seduction. Seduction is mostly a psychological activity that is done subconsciously rather than an intended pure physical activity. There is nothing wrong with seduction at least not when abused.

i don't really get your point - what i am talking about it using manipulation and tricks (or even hypnosis) to get something that you can't normally obtain based on being yourself. it is dishonest.

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hyperlexian
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08 Jun 2011, 8:54 am

Moog wrote:

The-Raven wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

why not just use a legitimate source of counselling that doesn't involve manipulating and seducing women, then? there are many of them out there.

what I think is strange is that men (or my ex bf) are perfectly ok with reading every PUA book on the market but wont read a single relationships self help book!

I guess PUA appeals to men's desire to have sex. Relationship books appeal to women's desire to relate. :wink:

that makes sense, but then it does not follow that men are reading it for anything else, so i frankly don't believe it when people try to repackage it as some kind of personal development.

i have to say that this made me laugh:

Moog wrote:

If I was a smarter and less lazy guy, I'd embed a bone fide development path inside a trojan horse of PUA-esque material. That would be interesting.

Start off giving the impression that you're going to help guys get laid, then lead them on a course that engenders true consciousness expansion and self actualisation. This appeals to my sense of humour.

Sex sells.

and you can also borrow my finger anytime. oh wait. never mind, it sounded sexier in my head.

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cdfox7
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08 Jun 2011, 8:58 am

I feel like making a lengthy comment about NLP, PUA ,and hypnosis right now tho time it not my best mate right now as my support worker is due to visit me in within the next 5 mins. OH CRAP!! !

cdfox7
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08 Jun 2011, 11:50 am

I'll talked about this before on many PUA threads in L&D, please read my posted to save me repeating myself.

Both PUA and its cult the seduction community originate from Ross Jeffries' Speed Seduction which is based from Neuro-linguistic programming and Hypnotherapy. NLP is the study of the structure of subjective experience. It studies the underlying structures of the skills, behaviours, and experiences of excellence, and assists people to use these structures effectively.

BTW I have had both Master Practitioner and Practitioner training in NLP from a female NLP trainer, plus NLP was the starting point from my personal studies into hypnotherapy. FYI also I am a man!!

Excellence can both be positive and negative!! Every behaviour has a positive intention. All our actions have at least one purpose - to achieve something that we value and benefits us. NLP separates the intention or purpose behind an action from the action itself. A person is not their behaviour. When a person has a better choice of behaviour that also achieves their positive intention, they will take it.

NLP was founded by both Richard Bandler and John Grinder. The name of NLP came from a night when Bandler was high as a kite while driving, he was stopped by the police & come up with the name of NLP after using three random names form university text books titles on his car seat to talk his away out of a ticket!!

The core of NLP is based on research into the work of Virginia Satir, Fritz Perls, Milton Erickson, Noam Chomsky, Gregory Bateson and Alfred Korzybski.

Some food for thought: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 28181.html

Yesterday I was tempted to buy copies of both Erik von Markovik and Neil Strauss's key texts on PUA from research into theses dark arts for the purpose of defence again there use, tho I though why should I fund there men who disrespect women with there teachings! I will get my hand on copies of the seminal works of PUA, mind your own business how I will get them!!

Let me make myself perfectly clear on this point, any more promotion of the use of PUA on WP, I will start to train and educate woman on this site on the ways of how to defend themselves from this psychological and hypnotic abuse of tools I trained and studied in!! Tools can be used as weapons and weapons can be as tools!!

MCalavera
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08 Jun 2011, 7:50 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

You're being selective. It's not just about Ross Jeffries anymore. It's gone beyond that. There is now Mystery, Neil Strauss, David Deangelo, Tyler Durden, and so on. Many of them are in opposition against Jeffries' methods and against each other even.

F*ck, man, every bloody charming gentleman who gets women all over him is subconsciously and naturally employing those same tips being taught in those books. Are we going to start calling those charming men dishonest manipulative bastards with malicious intent?

Fight all you want, but you're fighting in vain. Women don't logically choose who they get attracted to (same with men). They never have and never will.

Attraction is not a choice of logic. It's a "choice" of emotions.

MCalavera
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08 Jun 2011, 8:03 pm

Moog wrote:

Yes. Select few is a subjective statement. Saying that they are all bad is also subjective. The truth usually lies somewhere in between extreme statements.

I don't feel I need to be a 'better man', I don't feel particularly shamed by feminist whatever (maybe you can explain what exactly you mean by that, and how you feel ashamed, perhaps in another thread). I don't really want to alter the way I approach women in any considerable way.

Well, good luck with that then. If you can get success from your own ways, I have no problem. If you don't feel you need to be a better man, that's your judgment call and I have no issue with that. But many other men do wish to be better men. Got a source they can rely that does not, in its core, agree with what's labeled PUA stuff?

Quote:

I don't believe men should stop acting like men, in fact I encourage all people to find constructive outlets for every natural energetic impulse. But men who stoop to sneaky tricks to shag women are not being themselves at all, neither do I think it very constructive.

What's less sneaky and gets you better chance of having sex with a woman from the first date? Yeah, maybe you and I may not care that much about having sex on the first date, but some men want to have sex as soon as they can with the women they like and they want to do it without forcing it on the women.

Wrong from your perspective, but is it wrong from theirs? If women find this evil, then why do they end up agreeing to have sex? Did they really have no other choice whatsoever? Or is it because they also desire sex just as much as man does?

Look, there are so many psychological factors in play that go against what you and other idealists choose to believe. This reality is not the way we would like it to be.

Women generally are sexually attracted to cocky men who make them smile than to genuine nice guys who bore them romantically and sexually. That's just the way it is.

Quote:

I am prepared to have my mind changed, but all I've seen so far has only cemented my view. I really need to see some real evidence of the touted wonderful non seduction related benefits of using PUA material that cannot be learned through pursuing less seedy developmental paths.

Have you ever listened to David Deangelo's seminars on YouTube (for example). Lots of good sh*t there. Sometimes, it's more about man's development as a man than it is about attracting women. Even if it's very difficult for people like us to follow and apply due to our social struggles.

MCalavera
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08 Jun 2011, 8:19 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

What are women magazines for? Decoration?

Oh, actually, there are online PUA stuff for women. I think one of them is The Rules or something like that.

Quote:

and you didn't answer my question - if personal growth or development is the goal, why not use a program that helps a person in a positive way, without the PUA aspect? it doesn't make logical sense, unless the goal is to get laid. i get the feeling that the supposed positives of these programs are actually smoke and mirrors intended to distract.

Ok, what sources exactly do you have in mind that doesn't agree, in core, with the PUA stuff and that can help me become a better and more attractive man in society and in life?

Actually, what exactly is wrong with getting laid again?

Quote:

i don't really get your point - what i am talking about it using manipulation and tricks (or even hypnosis) to get something that you can't normally obtain based on being yourself. it is dishonest.

What you call manipulation and tricks are what naturals subconsciously employ (without reading those materials) when they interact with girls they're attracted to.

Watch movies like Gone With the Wind. That Rhett Butler may be an a**hole, but he sure is charming and gets women swooning all over him. And guess what? He employs PUA "tricks" when interacting with Scarlett and other women.

cdfox7
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08 Jun 2011, 9:12 pm

MCalavera wrote:

You're being selective.

Please specify and select which external body orifice your comment came from as I get the feeling that is came from the anus! A lot of the external by products of the anus do end up in the toilet you know!

MCalavera wrote:

It's not just about Ross Jeffries anymore. It's gone beyond that. There is now Mystery, Neil Strauss, David Deangelo, Tyler Durden, and so on. Many of them are in opposition against Jeffries' methods and against each other even.

If it wasn't for Jeffries they'll make they money else were now, anyway for all we know that might be faking there opposition to give themselves opportunities to make money from people like you now!

MCalavera wrote:

F*ck, man, every bloody charming gentleman who gets women all over him is subconsciously and naturally employing those same tips being taught in those books. Are we going to start calling those charming men dishonest manipulative bastards with malicious intent?

Every behaviour has a positive intention you know jack s**t about were PUA comes from it you did then you're know that behaviour is not linked to a person, a 'good' person can behave badly and a 'bad' person can behave in a good way!

MCalavera wrote:

Fight all you want, but you're fighting in vain. Women don't logically choose who they get attracted to (same with men). They never have and never will.

Attraction is not a choice of logic. It's a "choice" of emotions.

Get your f*****g facts right & reread my last comment I was talking about self-defend not a f*****g war!! Anyway about attraction, like atrracts like plus look at the behaviour, characteristics and physical aspects of both your partners and you will have a f*****g good idea of what partner you will find attractive!!

MCalavera
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08 Jun 2011, 9:25 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

You're being selective.

MCalavera wrote:

If it wasn't for Jeffries they'll make they money else were now, anyway for all we know that might be faking there opposition to give themselves opportunities to make money from people like you now!

MCalavera wrote:

Every behaviour has a positive intention you know jack sh** about were PUA comes from it you did then you're know that behaviour is not linked to a person, a 'good' person can behave badly and a 'bad' person can behave in a good way!

MCalavera wrote:

Get your f***ing facts right & reread my last comment I was talking about self-defend not a f***ing war!! Anyway about attraction, like atrracts like plus look at the behaviour, characteristics and physical aspects of both your partners and you will have a f***ing good idea of what partner you will find attractive!!

Calm down. Why the bitterness, mate?

I'm not trying to have a fight with you here. If you feel you have to protect women from the evil demonic monsters mistaken for charming men, then you're going to have to enter their womanly psyche and be able to manipulate it in some magical way so that they generally stop being subconsciously attracted to men and start being attracted to boys who go along with everything they say.

But hey, that would be a bad thing to do, wouldn't it? I mean, it IS the evil manipulation takteek.

Erisad
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08 Jun 2011, 9:29 pm

That's why I'm scared of charming men. I never know if they are that way naturally or are putting on an act. I wish there was a way to tell if a man is scum before getting emotionally invested. >.<

MCalavera
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08 Jun 2011, 9:31 pm

Erisad wrote:

That's why I'm scared of charming men. I never know if they are that way naturally or are putting on an act. I wish there was a way to tell if a man is scum before getting emotionally invested. >.<

All men are demonic scum. That's a given here.

Hope that tip was useful for you.

hyperlexian
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08 Jun 2011, 9:39 pm

MCalavera wrote:

What are women magazines for? Decoration?

Oh, actually, there are online PUA stuff for women. I think one of them is The Rules or something like that.

one online source does not an industry make.

and women's magazines are not intended, as their primary function, to manipulate men. however PUA material is designed, as its primary function, to manipulate women. they are not even similar at the core. some of the popular wonmen's magazines even teach women to cater to men and to be more susceptible to male manipulation.

Quote:

so you agree that the point is to get laid, first and foremost?

i'm not going to do your research for you - there are hundreds if not thousands of self-help programs that are focused on bettering the self without using subversive and unethical tactics.

Quote:

What you call manipulation and tricks are what naturals subconsciously employ (without reading those materials) when they interact with girls they're attracted to.

if it is natural to them, then they are naturally douchebags. that part was easy. next?

Quote:

Watch movies like Gone With the Wind. That Rhett Butler may be an a**hole, but he sure is charming and gets women swooning all over him. And guess what? He employs PUA "tricks" when interacting with Scarlett and other women.

like you said, Rhett Butler was an a**hole. how is it bettering yourself to emulate that? you are inconsistent with your assertion of the purpose of the PUA material.

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Erisad
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08 Jun 2011, 9:41 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Erisad wrote:

That's why I'm scared of charming men. I never know if they are that way naturally or are putting on an act. I wish there was a way to tell if a man is scum before getting emotionally invested. >.<

All men are demonic scum. That's a given here.

Hope that tip was useful for you.

Gee, thanks. :roll:

hyperlexian
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08 Jun 2011, 9:41 pm

MCalavera wrote:

I'm not trying to have a fight with you here. If you feel you have to protect women from the evil demonic monsters mistaken for charming men, then you're going to have to enter their womanly psyche and be able to manipulate it in some magical way so that they generally stop being subconsciously attracted to men and start being attracted to boys who go along with everything they say.

But hey, that would be a bad thing to do, wouldn't it? I mean, it IS the evil manipulation takteek.

uhhh there are more than two options.

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MXH
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08 Jun 2011, 9:57 pm

Erisad wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Erisad wrote:

That's why I'm scared of charming men. I never know if they are that way naturally or are putting on an act. I wish there was a way to tell if a man is scum before getting emotionally invested. >.<

All men are demonic scum. That's a given here.

Hope that tip was useful for you.

Gee, thanks. :roll:

sadly he is quite right.

hyperlexian
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08 Jun 2011, 10:02 pm

MXH wrote:

Erisad wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Erisad wrote:

That's why I'm scared of charming men. I never know if they are that way naturally or are putting on an act. I wish there was a way to tell if a man is scum before getting emotionally invested. >.<

All men are demonic scum. That's a given here.

Hope that tip was useful for you.

Gee, thanks. :roll:

sadly he is quite right.

not even!

both men and women are each an internal mixture of good and bad, in different proportions. and we can choose to become better human beings.

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