DataSage’s Alpha Male Guide to Meeting Women (JULY UPDATE!!)

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YOU have no way to rate me. Nothing I have said indicates what my own personal level of skill might be. I have only talked about behavior and you have no concept (and refuse to admit) that there might be observable traits of someone who has good aptitude for sexual skills.

Since you refuse to admit or acknowledge that there can be observable traits that support an accurate prediction whether someone has sex skills or not, by your own belief that there is a universal ignorance in such a prediction, you can't say you can "rate" me.

There is nothing about any of your responses that has anything in it but male chauvinistic dismissive biases, a condescending male presumption that women are stupid creatures to be acted on with a disregard for what they say is attractive, and you're totally clueless for any well-known terminology or concepts of sexual attraction.

The head cases and losers you've been picking up at Rehab might fit into your seduction scheme, but that isn't truly seduction. What you are doing is scamming losers, for which there is a whole other set of rules. Even if you could rate me, you would rate me a "zero" in your universe of bad sex with losers, since I don't map into your sexual playing field.

Supposing what you say is true, there is zero way for a woman to infer whether a man has sex skills or not. Everything else about what you say is a winning seduction scheme, including ignoring what women say attracts them, are the words of someone who is not hanging out with smart women, but women with low-self esteem and/or psychological problems. So I think there is a big cultural split between the world of sexuality you are referencing and the one I am. I.e. you are only getting laid. I can go out and "just get laid" any time, and that is not something that interests me. I have little interest in finding just any partner -- why would a woman like me be reduced to using your kind of techniques, as if I would be, like you, acting like I have to scam guys with no self-esteem?

We are coming from two different worlds on this. So there is no point to trying to discuss with you, except to exchange cultural notes on the breeding habits of sexual subcultures that are incompatible. And I'm not into sexual anthropology.

Beauty is subjective. It is not measurable like 'temperature' or height. It doesn not exist without someone making a subjective judgement. So if a majority agree person Z is beautiful, does that make them beautiful? Not that long ago a majority of people believed the earth flat and that the sun was pulled by a chariot.

So if someone without the "frame of reference" required can disgree with your theory, are you prepared for the mauling you'd get from those who have got your 'frame of reference'? I sense you're using verbal sparring techniques to stifle discussion that disagrees with you.

If your frame of reference requires knowledge of Big Books that the plebs on WP can't possibly understand, then there is little value in you even attempting to discuss it here. You're bound to get befuddled replies from those with a different frame of reference.



Hot air rises over everyones head.

I responded by giving you references, and I used words that you could Google with. If you were genuinely interested in the subject, that would have been enough for you to do some surfing. The Robert Greene book (Art of Seduction), is a classic. I've had it for years and only just dug it back up a couple of years ago, but anyone who is interested in developing better social skills should have it on their bookshelf because it gives basic information on how to present yourself in an appealing way -- social bonding is all a kind of "seduction" in the sense that you want to bridge a distance.

If you want to discuss technical points, I will discuss technical points of sexuality, attraction and seduction with you, including concepts introduced in the OP's post. However, all of your posts have included ad-hominem attacks on me.

Your posts in response to mine have been ad-hominem attacks, dismissive and full of inability to engage my logic or arguments. You make false arguments, in the sense that you know how to make fallacious arguments that sound coherent even though they are fallacious. You seem to have some experience trying to make people who are right look stupid or sound deluded. You're engaging in trollish sophistry.

Do you question my story? Should I post mp3's of the professor's crazy girlfriend's talk? I carried an mp3 player openly around my neck on a lanyard because I have a hard time tracking and remembering conversations. I recorded her openly and have a pile of material I can post if you want to dissect and question my experiences.

Why are you engaging with me? What is your point?

You sense wrong. Look at my posts, they are technical writings, not self-help, how-to-get-a-girl pseudo-counseling.

You can't just get on the right attitude, pump yourself up and learn a few head games to get girls. There are foundations for an attractive person you have to lay in yourself with respect to physical condition, presentation and sexual skills.

Like doing anything that requires body and mind, like going out for team sports, learning fly fishing or training for a triathalon. It takes attention, effort and developmental planning.

You don't just get on an attitude and game women into bed. Short cuts don't work.

These comments constitute personal attacks and a violation of WP rules.

You took a sentence fragment out of context. The sentence was about having no frame of reference, which meets the definition of "clueless". So my remark was literal, not a "personal attack".

But it was insensitive and callous, and not supportive of good discussion, so I should not have said it. I'm very defensive when NTs attack.

The Alpha Male Guide has some good points but there are some things in it I personally would not do.

I think Step 6 about making her laugh should be higher in priority. Humor (with smiling) can be a very effective ice breaker and can defuse tension right away. However, I have found self-deprecating humor to be more effective for me than "teasing the girl." If you are truly able to laugh at yourself and your own weaknesses, it demonstrates to the other person, male or female, that you are humble enough to admit your faults, and yet display an inner confidence and strength about yourself that shines. You would show that you know how to turn a weakness into a strength. Its near-universal applications (works with men and women, whether you are just making a business contact, starting a friendship, or looking for something more) makes it more useful as a tool, as we Aspies don't have to second-guess ourselves by asking ourselves "what method should I do in this situation??" And it's really easy to drop the conversation afterwards if you have doubts or you think the conversation isn't going well. That's a much better situation to deal with than if you were to say, "So are you always this hot at the ice cream shop?" Not sure how you would get out of that one if you had to...

Of course, if you find yourself having difficulties making fun of your past difficulties, that may suggest that you're not quite over those issues, and it may be better to postpone trying to get into a relationship until those issues are resolved. Making the other person deal with your own issues is not fair to the other person, and worse it isn't good to have an expectation that the other person fix your issues; in the event the issues don't get resolved, the other person would get blamed for something that really shouldn't be his or her responsibility to begin with.

I just hate "guides" to show guys how to meet women. It seems so desperate and dishonest.

My "guide" to dating women:

Move out of your parents house, take a shower, go out in public, be honest with yourself and others, talk to a girl, make friends, don't freak them out, crack a couple jokes, make out, don't freak them out.

Its not like its saying "Say your have a nice car and are a million air" Its saying more like "Hey dont stand in the corner with your head down talking to yourself".

This is great advice/comment.

That teasing stuff is more cheesy stuff that is geared more to adolescents and prepubescents.

I'm thinking that 12-year-olds write all these dating guides and post them posing as adults. The guys who actually try to pull this stuff on grown women are the ones you want to have goofball repellent spray, for when they approach you with their condescending, strutting pickup lines and air of egotistical male teasing.

Last edited by ephemerella on 24 Dec 2008, 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

This dating guide is more age-appropriate for you, at your age, at 15, than it is for grown men. So he is probably coming from that other perspective. There are big differences in how a 15 year old can act toward girls and how a 25 year old needs to avoid acting if he doesn't want to get laughed at by grown women. NTs mature socially very rapidly between ages 15 & 25, so the women over 25 are on a different planet than 15 year old girls.

That's such a valid point Ephemeralla! I agree with much of what you say, it's a pity the areas where we disagree cause such confict!

Anyway, you're mentioning the difference between life at 15 and 25. I can verify that at 45 the standard dating advice is even less relevant. For a start, the number of genuinely single, available members of the opposite sex is close to zero. Factor in children, ex-partners, complicated mortgages etc etc and you find the standard dating guides are irrelavant.

I've read a few dating guides out of morbid curiosity and I have to say that DataSage's is by far the best, easily the least obnoxious.

ephemerella, I do not mean this as a personal attack, but you have been posting some VERY bad advice here.

What you are saying sounds logical at first, but as a man who as put a lot of time and effort into dating, I can tell you that many of the things you are saying simply do not work in practice. At least not for me, and not for anyone I've ever talked to.

To be fair, a lot of the things you mention have partial truth in them, but you are missing the larger point. For example. Physical attractiveness can be helpful. But the way men act is what makes men attractive. Men who are nothing at all like the physical standards of beauty can be considered sex symbols (good example is kid rock, he's fat and sloppy, but he's confident as hell). And even physically attractive men can be not really that sucessful or attractive sexually, if they have bad body language and lack confidence. Working out is good, but it's mostly good because it builds confidence and affects a man's personality.

Personality is the #1 thing that will or will not make a woman attracted to man. And what are the most attractive personality traits? Confidence, ambition, self-respect (there are others). In other words "Alpha." Perhaps you have misunderstood what "alpha" truly means. That would be understandable, there are a lot of misperceptions.

Furthermore, while a lot of things you suggest do not work in practice, a lot of the things Sage has suggested do work in practice. What matters is whether or not something can get results in the real world. His advice really does help. Yours... not so much. Your advice is good advice I guess, but it is tweaking around the edges of attraction without addressing the real core issue.

It may sound callous, but I do not think you have ever been a man who is trying to approach a woman. You have not been in the situations we've been in.

You do not know what it is like, just as we can never really know what it is like to be a woman.

I'm sure your advice is well intentioned, but in my experience, it simply doesn't work. And I worry that some of the men who read it may pick up bad habits. Especially those men who need the advice most - men who are afraid to approach women. I think you're doing more harm than good.

Again, I hope I have not said that in too harsh a way, I mean no offense.

Everything Wanderman and Sage have said is correct.

Adult women do like being teased and made fun of - I've seen it in action myself many times.

No women can critisise a men's dating guide - they have no idea what its like being a man trying to attract a woman.

They'll say "no, thats bad, thats manipulative" - 99% of the time they'll have partners who used these same traits on them to attract them - they just didn't know it.

Women's opinions on these guides is useless, because they don't know what men do to attract them - its all subconscious.

QFT