Sexism on L&D

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All of this. And, SE, if you don't like it cast as a sexual assault (what other kind of assault could it be? You don't kiss people because you're asking them to watch your bags while you go check on a flight delay; you're hoping it'll lead to sex), you'll have to take it up with all the organizations that already class it that way. And they do it appropriately. If someone's doing things to your body without your permission -- or because they've simply decided you've "signaled" permission, or, what the hell, they just want to see if they can get something started -- I don't know how you call it anything but an assault. It's long been socially acceptable to assault women in this matter, but, like many other things, that's changed and continues to change.

Would you like some links to All in the Family? There's a guy there who's sympathetic to your position.

^^^ I know this might be slightly off topic but when a man and a woman are making out what does it mean when she starts to breath heavily and grab the mans crotch? I sometimes break it off when it gets to that point and not talk to the woman again out of fear I might be having sex at the wrong time and such or she might not want it. I do it to preserve my innocence.

It's no more assault than somebody trying to shake your hand without your permission.

I wish to god that some people would just grow up.

It's definitely time for a separate thread and poll addressing kissing and sexual assault. I'll put one together.

To be honest, the people who actually make policy here do have common sense and nobody is going to start banning guys because they whine inappropriately about women. It's just a fairly decent debate topic although it should be called "inappropriate whining" and not "sexism".

Kissing a friend at the wrong time after you misread the signals isn't assault of any kind. It's a mistake. Going up to a stranger and kissing them may or may not be assault, depending on the situation.

Common sense people. Common sense. Try it sometimes. Before you start bitching that aspies don't have common sense, realize that you can learn from those who have it and also (this is an important part here) you can believe what people tell you who DO have common sense.

Or you might just want to see a therapist about irrational anger and paranoid assumptions. At least thats what I'd probably try to do. Unless you like being laughed at behind your back and sometimes to your face, because thats really all it's resulting in. No social change that you think is actually required here, just being laughed at. Really.

OOM is right. I'll put together poll options that express a variety of perspectives. We'll see what the larger group thinks.

It means that you're dating women who aren't very socially aware or respectful, and who assume that because you're a guy what you want most in the world is sex, anytime, anywhere, and are not asking you first. You're also probably confusing those women by not being clear about what you want and don't want.

If you're making out, make it clear that you don't want to have sex. Use words, say so. You don't have to explain why if you don't want to, though she may be curious or confused.

Oh...if by "preserve my innocence" you mean "I don't want to be accused of rape"...then this is very easy. Ask. Again, words. Ask if she wants to have sex with you. "Yes" is the answer that means "yes". (And that means "yes" the first time, or if she comes back around to you and asks you. Don't pressure or harass a woman to get to yes.) And if she's drunk, just stay away. Don't have sex with a woman who's too impaired to be in her right mind.

Last edited by tarantella64 on 29 Jun 2014, 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually it seems to be resulting in quite a few women speaking up about how they'd like to be treated on this forum.

What is it about the rape, harassment, and abuse stats that you're not interested in? Because if you're aware of those, I have a hard time seeing how you call any of this "irrational anger and paranoid assumptions." The entire point of the hashtag threads and the stats accompanying -- which show how widespread the problems are -- is to put this "paranoid assumptions" bit in the garbage, where it belongs. There are actually excellent reasons for women to fear strange men and guard against disrespectful behavior in relationships. Are you also aware that a significant number of posters here have been sexually assaulted?

Moderators have already said that they would be willing and happy to moderate for sexism as they do racism and homophobia; it's just that Alex has made it clear he doesn't want them to. The people involved actually do think there's a problem with sexism on WP.

I have an idea. What if Alex could somehow institute an ignore feature similar to one on Yahoo Messenger and Yahoo Chats? Every member on here could choose to ignore those they find offense. What does everyone think especially you Dox? Would you agree to something like this? Maybe one could institute a like or dislike button and the more dislikes a thread receives the more towards the bottom it goes.

I don't see irrational anger or paranoia coming from the people arguing for slightly more hands-on moderation of sexism. I see genuine concern and a wish to make the world a better place.

If one woman is saved from sexual assault and/or one man is dissuaded from making such an assault by this discussion, then by all means, laugh away.

There is a HUGE difference between rape, harassment and abuse and some losers on here making blanket statements about women based on their loserness with women. Huge difference.

I used to have panic attacks in the past, for several years after an incident that happened (no, nothing that could be considered sexism or an attack of any sort) but during my therapy I learned how to look at things with perspective and stop the things that were triggering me that were harmless and had really nothing to do with anything. That's very much what I would suggest for those who have been in any way assaulted by a dude in the past to do about these particular statements. Learn to see them as what they are. A guy who is upset that he's never had any success with the ladies and who refuses to learn any different way to go about it, so he blames us all. He's not the lurker in the alley, or the guy slipping something into your drink, or the date gone horribly wrong cause he's a douche and can't realize that no means no. It's just a guy whining.

If we women get to a point to where anything that is remotely insulting or a blanket statement about us pushes us to the point where we feel that we must overreact like this, then we just become a caricature of women and feminism rather than strong women and feminists that will be taken seriously.

It kind of reminds me of back during Desert Storm. Lots of people protested it, but some of them did so not because they actually thought that it was such a bad war, but because they missed the Nam protests by a few years and had "always wanted to protest a war". I know this because many people actually said it. I think that this over the top reaction to some basement dwellers is the same thing. Wanting to stand up for womens rights like back in the day but never really coming across a valid opportunity to do so can cause you to make mountains out of molehills.

Why not help the people who are feeling upset about these comments to see that they aren't anything that can actually hurt them, so rather than enable more fear and helplessness you actually empower them as women to stand strong and not be hurt? Or isn't empowering women what the women's movement was all about in the first place?

Hmmm. Are women being taught to feel sexually assaulted by romantic overtures from men?

Kind of looks that way, doesn't it?

Where is the assault coming from when somebody says something like "Women are shallow and only want jocks or guys that abuse them. They don't want nice guys like me!" Really, what makes you think that assault is anywhere in there?

You seem to think I'm arguing to let guys say stuff like "I'm planning a raping spree because of how women treat me. Here are my plans so far, and I'd like suggestions on how to go about it better if anybody has any." They are bitching on here, not planning.

I wouldn't get bent out of shape of someone tried to give me a kiss,if I wasn't interested I'd just say no.If they persist,I'll make sure they comprehend no.I've twisted a mans thumb and beat another one with a switch.Most men don't need to hear no twice,it's the jerks that don't understand the word that give men a bad rap.I've seen a couple men and women here say sexist remarks,but I've also seen others tell them it's not ok.The only way to change things in RL and here is to have people take a stand and tell the offender that is not acceptable behavior.In a few cases maybe the person is clueless,of course there always are a few asses that like to keep the s**t pot stirred.
All of us here have a hard time with body language,so I can't really get mad at someone who has misunderstood signals.

kissing doesn't equal sex or wantig sex to me.

I see it as romantic and emotional bonding. I enjoy kissing. It does seem though to women kissing means sex. or at least I've been told and read that kissing turns women on. mind you kissing they agreed upon. for me though it doesn't have to be sexual. I just enjoy kissing women. Its fun and I makes me feel closer to them.

cuddling now that tends to excite me. :'( which sucks cause I really enjoy and require the closeness and feeling that being held brings.