Sexism on L&D

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Yeah, except I never said that all older people suck, and therefore it's not my logic. I agree with the things Eureka is saying, and she is older than me. You're suggesting that I only disagree with OOM because of her age, which is quite simply not true. I disagree with her because I have a brain in my head that's capable of independent thought. YOU'RE the one that suggested that I shouldn't be taken seriously because I'm young enough that some of you could have wiped my butt for me as a child, as you put it, which sounds like "i'm old enough to have wiped your butt and therefore you couldn't have anything valid to say and I can't take you seriously". Sounds to me like you're the one with the logic problem, not me.

For someone who attaches so much importance to age I notice that you haven't included yours in your profile...

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm saying a lot of older people have trouble taking younger people seriously since experience often teaches older people contrary to the naïveté of youth. I'm quite aware that I'm not very bright, and very few of the ideas I've had that have gotten me the furthest in life are even original ideas. Last time I checked the wheel was public domain. The only legitimate claim I can make in terms of original creativity is the independent motivation to use that wheel.

Transferring ideas from one generation to another was not my idea. All that's mine is the decision to do it. The better piano kids were the ones whose parents and teachers were piano Nazis. I can't get those results from more sensitive kids and parents, but the gloves are off when it comes to my own. They aren't child prodigies, but 8 times out of 10 if you play or sing a note they can tell you what that note is. Shocked the crap out of me when I was messing around with a bass guitar and my oldest was naming the notes I was playing. Nearly crapped my pants when my daughter started doing the same kind of thing. We won't even talk about the time she got a superior rating at a keyboard festival the first time she ever performed at one. Old folks, and when it comes to music I include myself here, know what they're talking about and instilling a strong sense of discipline and work ethic in the youngest kids most often results on the most positive results. You don't have to say it, but when they feel this sense of "play the farking piano or DIE" early on, it's a lot easier to step things up when you don't have someone in your face all the time. A 5 year old understands that?it's not so easy to get that across to a 3 year old.

Another old-fashioned idea is "virtue is it's own reward." Again, my kids get that because of the way I teach. To get ahead with anyone else, you have to be seriously good at bribery, and I don't have the knack nor any kind of high regard for that to make it effective.

I also have experience as a classroom teacher, albeit brief. Despite the brevity of my classroom career, it was enough to learn all the tricks in terms of setting and meeting expectations. So if my own kids do EVERY SINGLE THING I SAY, they'd likely be straight-A students on account of me knowing both sides of how to play the game. I can show them the shortcuts their teachers won't. I can give them the repetition and application most parents say they have no time for. I freakin' KNOW this stuff and OWN it.

So?yeah, I envy people with superior knowledge and experience to mine, and where I have it that others don't, I intend to pass that along at every opportunity. Dismissing people because "age isn't everything" never helped me much.

Please?I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm not yet old enough to know anything, but I'm just old enough to know better.

I prefer to see what people have to say on the merits of my ideas alone, not whether those ideas come from a 26 year old, a 36 year old, or a 76 year old. That's a personal thing, and I honestly believe my useful life is already at least half gone. And that's the optimist talking.

But?

?if you MUST know?

?I'm 36. It's not a state secret.

True.

I was just having a little fun with that one.

No, age=/=wisdom automatically. I tend to gravitate towards older people who are both successful at what they do and are generous. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, but I tend to challenge older folks more through questions rather saying outright what I think. Remember that whole "wipe-your-butt" thing I mentioned earlier. They are looking to teach, not to be taught. I have a long history of being hard-headed. It might be too late for me already to change my mind, but I'm certainly going to give it an honest try.

Yes, but you see, you're still operating under the assumption that I disagree with what she's telling me because "age isn't everything." NOBODY mentioned ANYTHING about age until you brought up your damn "butt-wiping" theory. If you see her experience and knowledge as superior to yours, then that's great! I don't see her knowledge as superior at all, which is why I feel the need to disagree with so much of what she says. Again, this has NOTHING to do with her age so stop trying to make it about age. You're creating issues where there were none.

If you were "just having a little fun", then why are you still saying that I disregard OOM's ideas based on her age?

Well, the poll has been going for an honest week and the numbers look fairly stable.

Should Alex Ban Sexist Opinions from L&D?
Yes 36% [ 26 ]
No 46% [ 33 ]
Undecided16% [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 71

At this point, I think we can call "No" the winner.

Depends on the self-help books. The kinds of self-help books I've read have to be read with the understanding that not everything follows such precise patterns. I'm referring to titles such as Entreleadership, Start, and 7 Habits. Although technically not a self-help book, there's 48 Laws of Power. Also a MOST EXCELLENT read is Art of War. The basic principles in each are applicable to dating relationships as well as any interpersonal relationship. In my experience, and I'm wondering what starvingartist would have to say about this, the most attractive feature of any man is empathy. I seemed to do better with the opposite sex when I focused more on listening and trying to show I understood what they were saying. The trouble I always ended up having is while women looked to me to try to understand them, it rarely worked both ways, as though my feelings were completely irrelevant. I'm not talking about taking her issue and making it about me?I just mean I never felt I could bring any kind of personal issue into any kind of dialogue. Eventually I took the common-sense road and just avoided that type of woman, but it's often been a gripe of mine just how often I just didn't seem to matter to anyone else, particularly with women I was supposedly in a relationship with.

Art of War is probably what most PUA crap is based on. I've found two concepts worthy of active practice in a relationship: 1) Never fight a protracted war--you WILL lose; and 2) Never, EVER give up the higher ground. A strange thing happened once I decided I'd rather be right than happy--relational matters started working out towards a mutual benefit and I was a lot happier for it. Winning in a relationship doesn't have to be zero-sum, which might be at odds with a lot of Art of War. But it can be valuable when it is appropriate and has a wide range of application. I'm not crazy about looking at women as the enemy or as territory to be conquered, so Art of War as an analogy to relationships has to be used with extreme caution. But as far as what I like as "self-help," there you go.

I think not, this isn't a contest.

Edit: But since you like polls anyway, I feel like I need to point out that while 33 people voted 'No', 38 people did not vote 'No'.

Last edited by Nights_Like_These on 30 Jun 2014, 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

How do you count the people who left because they didn't want to deal with the sexism?
The issue here is not "do you want sexism moderated", it's "is sexism making WP unwelcoming to women". I think the number of businesses that wanted ADA was very, very low, but the ADA does not exist for the benefit of people who want to be able to ignore the disabled. The South wasn't keen on the Civil Rights Act, either.

You're also forgetting the issue that came up at the start of all this, which is that this site isn't walled off from the rest of the universe, and it just looks hella bad. It's bad enough that as far as there is a public perception of AS, it's of a guy who's socially extremely awkward, maybe bright, hilariously unable to catch on to social context, and a total pain to deal with because dense, but essentially sweet and weirdly innocent. I don't think you really need "essentially sweet and weirdly innocent" to be replaced by "sewer-level misogynist and omg run, he thinks women are sexbots and has an appalling, ragey view of them".

I'm not still saying that. I'm saying older people will likely dismiss younger views for their lack of experience. It's not a logical position, but a more experienced person will more likely be quicker in finding flaws in the reasoning of youth. If, indeed it really is the older person who is wrong, you have to take a whole different approach than straightforward syllogistic logic. Something like, "Hey I know so-and-so is one of your favorite non-fiction authors. If I leave this book with you, will you give it a read? I'd like to know what you think about such-and-such." Or "So-and-so said such-and-such on the news last night. Did you hear about that? I'm not sure I understood what so-and-so meant by that. Did that make any sense to you? What did you think?" You're not likely to change minds right away, but the least you accomplish is get someone to thinking about an issue without coming across as an inexperienced idiot. You might not win any converts that way, but you'll get a lot closer than "Hey, you're wrong and I can prove it."

I don't mind a little confrontation myself, and I've revised my position on feminism out of some of those confrontations. But sympathizing with you, tarantella, or starvingartist isn't going to change my mind when it comes to activist overreaching. I don't believe unjust or undeserved censorship ends with "we need better enforcement against sexism." It's a familiar pattern. If sexism isn't that severe and it's been dealt with when it has, I don't really see what more should be done. Doesn't mean I hate anyone; it just means I disagree.

But if you insist, it does still appear that you're projecting your dad any time you encounter an older person who disagrees with you. And I'm afraid that just isn't enough to justify your ageism. You brought that up, not I!

I'm just taking notice of the numbers. And, the numbers relate to the question which was asked. Since you object to the question and you have suggested your own, I think you may have implicitly committed to starting your own poll asking the question "Is sexism making WP unwelcoming to women?" So, put a poll where your mouth is.

Projecting. lol

Again, I fail to see how I'm being ageist when I'm not the one that brought up anyone's age and I've stated countless times now that OOM's age has nothing to do with the fact that I disagree with her (also, you'll find that all of the people in this thread who are on the same side of the issue as I am are all older than me)? And I still fail to see how I'm projecting by pointing out that age may or may not factor in to how wise or experienced someone is and by using my dad as an example to prove that point, seeing as how he was someone who was older but far from wise? Especially when I only used it as an example after you told me that others my not be taking me seriously because they're old enough to be my parents, so please , Dr. Freud, explain to me where the projecting is going on? Or are you just trying (and failing) at being a troll?

Also...but you ARE still saying that, you just told me I'm ageist did you not, at the end of the post? lol

This is a fruitless argument, going nowhere fast.

Everybody has their positions staked out. Nobody will budge.

This is like World War I--except without the killing, fortunately.

The two sides are in their trenches...stalemated. Let's hope this doesn't turn into a permanent siege.

I believe we actually like each other--man or woman. If we were to meet in person, we'd probably like each other.

Our regard for each other is temporarily derailed by this Gender Discord.

I don't think WrongPlanet will ever been seen as being a sexist forum. I believe it will always be a place where people with ASD's will come.

There are sexists on this Forum; there are sexists everywhere. If anything blatantly sexist is posted, it must be looked into the moderators, and action taken.

Actually, through all this, I haven't seen anything remotely sexist being posted. I believe the message has been conveyed. People might have different takes on notions, which might be alleged to be sexist by those who are searching far and wide for sexism. But the "all women like jerks stuff" hasn't appeared.

Don't you agree?

You're projecting. You've allowed your apparent negative relationship with your father to bias your attitudes towards people whose views you dislike.

I believe accusing someone of trolling violates TOS. I'm telling the mods. lol