More Thought on Incels.

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You sound as though I've never paid attention to women's comments on the looks of some incels, so your criticism is based on an uninformed premise.

Enlighten me. What do women say about the looks of these incels? Like I said, some may be decent looking but have other problems unrelated to looks. Still, others are less attractive to women looks-wise than we can comprehend through our eyes. Actions speak louder than words. Saying, "he looks okay in a picture" doesn't mean much. But please, I'm open to criticism. Maybe you're right. Explain.

I've heard more comments on E.R being attractive than unattractive.
I've never heard any women I know comment on any of their looks as being terribly outside of the ordinary.
I've known plenty of unattractive men who did have partners but generally didn't share the personality traits that seem typical of people who embrace the label incel.

No, none of that is conclusive, but your understanding of their motives sounds like you take that community's concerns about their looks at face value and only concede that other factors might be relevant when pressed, before circling back to fixating on looks like the concession occurred.

But how do you know they were unattractive? You found them unattractive? That's the thing, our perception isn't the same as women's. Heterosexual courtship, it's how one sex perceives the attractiveness of the other, not an outside observer trying to judge how good or average or unattractive another man is.



Several things. If he had turned himself over to the authorities and were in prison right now, I'm sure there would be a contingency of women writing him love letters. We see it all the time with serial killers and other horrific criminals.

But, in life, he was deemed unattractive by the opposite sex. Doesn't matter what they say after the fact. Did any of them find him attractive enough to even give him a chance? Again, you finding him better looking than men who are in relationships with women is meaningless. We really can't judge the looks of other men as well as we think we can.



My understanding of whose motives? Women or self-described incels? Other factors are indeed relevant AFTER passing the initial looks test (in the eyes of women, not yours or mine).

And what I'm talking about goes beyond dating/sex/relationships. The ugly guy is often thrown under the bus and vilified by women, simply based on looks alone, even if you think he looks like a normal guy. Even if you think he's better looking than a more successful man. It really is a Theory of Mind problem.

Again you insist on circling back to fixating on looks and assuming I've never discussed people's appearances with other people to gain perspectives beyond my own.

Enjoy your mental trap and I wish you the best of luck when you finally realize what it is.

All right. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I fully concede that there can be other factors beyond looks. But my gripe is we can't determine the inherit attractiveness of another man as perceived by women. If two men who are on par lookswise, and one lets himself get fat and scruffy, then of course the other man will look better. But the man who let himself go is still better looking than an uglier man who's clean cut and in good shape. See the anecdotes on this thread about the destitute bum who seemingly has no problems attracting women.

I know it's very scary to comprehend, and realize how our minds don't work the same as others. And that there are things beyond our control. And that if you were a little uglier, your self improvement may have been meaningless. Also, most people don't want to come out and openly admit someone else is ugly in polite conversation. It makes them socially look bad. So, you can't always go on words and claims. Go by action and treatment.

And I'm sorry if this is earth-shattering, and perhaps making you question how much of the mistreatment was Autism and how much was people shallowly judging you simply on your looks and not your behavior or personality. It is sad and scary; and it's much easier to play wish-away.

For what it's worth, I don't usually struggle at first socially. It takes awhile for people to notice that I'm cranky, disagreeable and mostly concerned with my own narrow interests. I can be fairly charming so long as I have the energy to sustain it.

People who let themselves go can still be charming and people who know how to be charming can go far in life even if they're unattractive, have let themselves go, have their lives in shambles and obviously use people.

Making the mistake of assuming that hypothetical bum is physically attractive instead of just charming and insisting that everyone who says 'no, he's not attractive' just doesn't get it is a demonstration of a ToM failure. That's part of why I trust my own insight over yours. I'm sure both of us are below average with demonstrating ToM, but that doesn't mean we're equal.

^ For what it's worth, I assumed you were male, biologically and self-identity. I see now you're non-binary, so I'm not sure what you really are and what your experiences have been like.

A hypothetical man who does all right socially but struggles with women is of average attractiveness, but has those other issues, which I concede fully exist. A less attractive, but still decent looking man without those issues will do better than him.

But the theoretical bum is still good looking. Not as good looking as he'd be if he cleaned up, but still more attractive than the uglier man in better shape. Doesn't matter if another man perceives the bum as "ugly but charismatic." Women still have to find him sexually attractive lookswise. Charisma and confidence often come from validation. When ugly men try to be charismatic and confident around women, it's met with disgust. There is a threshold of passable looks.

I present in a masculine manner most of the time and I'm generally assumed to be a cis-het man, so the assumption wasn't off-base.

May depend on the woman, not all women have the exact same ideas of what they find attractive, we aren't a hive mind.

"Resistance is futile"

-The Borg

Well according to this video, they say it's normal for women in their 20s, to go for guys in their 30s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMV3R8-EsSs&t=1380s

I would say this makes sense, because I noticed that more women in their 20s were going for me to, now that I am in my 30s as well it seems.

A lot of men who proclaim themselves to be incels seem to be in their early 20s, mid 20s. So if they knew that it was normal for guys to strike out until you reach your 30s, would they be more willing to hold out till then, rather than losing hope?

but their hormones are raging now Now NOW!! by the time the 30s come around all that is old news.

But if it's going to be all old news by that time, then why are they making such a big deal of it now, if it's not going to resonate with them later?

Did you watch the video? That's not at all what they say. They discuss how, with social media, women have more options and male virginity is on the rise. They later talk about career women in their 30s not able to find men in their 30s who make as much as them, because financially-successful men in their 30s want younger women. Also, they say, these women in their 30s are often still delusional and think they're as desirable as they were in their prime, when they're not.

Nowhere do they say that young women en masse are rushing out to date men in their 30s. They also say a man's value with age isn't guaranteed, he has to be in good financial shape. They also say women on dating apps tend to message men equal to their age, men often go for younger.

They even claim a woman would rather die alone with her cats than end up with a guy she doesn't want, because they refuse to lower their standards with age.

Did you even watch the video?

Yes I watched the whole video. In the beginning of the video they talked about how women tend to go for their guys in their 30s because they have more. They talk about this in the beginning portion more so. I was not talking about the part where older women cannot get what they want. I was talking about more the beginning part of the video where they talk about how younger women want older guys and because of this, a lot of guys in their 20s are virgins.

That's the part I was trying to make a point about. Not the rest of what they say afterward.