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TwilightPrincess
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22 Jun 2019, 2:13 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
My point is not that everybody must have a great job, great body, great income, etc, to get a relationship. The point is that people with all the flaws I listed above in conjunction with each other are likely going to struggle finding a partner. You have to have qualities that are attractive enough to where at least some women think they could potentially consider you their best dating option to even get your foot in the door. Marknis, as he's indicated multiple times, can't even get a coffee date.

You were able to get into relationships, but Marknis can't. I don't accept that Marknis and virtually all of us in similar situations on the spectrum just so happen to simultaneously have horrendous luck with love and dating. There are observable patterns and parallels to be drawn that make much more sense than any other explanation. Maybe dating was different 20 or 30 years ago, I don't know, but considering that the ratio between women and men having sex within a single year used to be similar, but now it's come out that men are having sex at significantly lower annual rates and women are having sex at roughly the same annual rates, it stands to reason that some things have changed in the last 20 years.

What is your source of statistics on this matter?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/number-of-men-under-30-who-havent-had-sex-in-last-year-tripled-in-past-decade
Quote:
The share of U.S. adults reporting no sex reached an all-time high last year, according to the latest data from the General Social Survey. Nearly 23 percent of adults between the ages of 18 to 29 were celibate in 2018, more than double the number since 2008...

One surprising result from the data was that a much larger than expected number of the sexless individuals were men. For most of the past three decades, men and women in their twenties reported similar rates of sexlessness. Since 2008, however, the share of men younger than 30 reporting no sex has nearly tripled—compared to an eight percentage point increase reported among females of the same age group.




Image


But of course what I predict:

- WP women will deny the above, this is a given.
- The media is probably blaming it on gaming, and not on the elephant in the room: the rise of online dating (and "coincidentally" it boomed since 2008) which makes getting sex with super hot men very easy for average women, while making it very hard for average men to even get a date with an average woman.


We’re talking about a 10% difference here based on gender. It’s hardly the earth shattering difference you seem to be suggesting.

I’m hardly in a hurry to have sex with a super hot man. I’ve not tried online dating, either. More young people had sex in the past year than not.



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Jun 2019, 2:32 pm

I predict stuff very well.



Mona Pereth
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22 Jun 2019, 2:41 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
But of course what I predict:

- WP women will deny the above, this is a given.
- The media is probably blaming it on gaming, and not on the elephant in the room: the rise of online dating (and "coincidentally" it boomed since 2008) which makes getting sex with super hot men very easy for average women, while making it very hard for average men to even get a date with an average woman.

Or perhaps more women are now having sex NOT with "super hot men" but with each other? As noted in my previous post, women's sexuality tends to be more fluid than men's. (See this review of the book Sexual Fluidity by Lisa Diamond.) And apparently there has been a trend toward more and more women identifying as lesbian or bisexual, such that lesbian and bisexual women now outnumber gay and bisexual men, whereas, decades ago, gay and bisexual men outnumbered lesbian and bisexual women.

See also Why Are So Many Girls Lesbian or Bisexual? Girls today are three times more likely than boys to be non-heterosexual. Why? by Leonard Sax M.D., Ph.D., in Psychology Today. In particular:

Quote:
Female sexuality is different from male sexuality. If a straight boy kissed another boy, perhaps to amuse some girls who might be watching, he would be unlikely to undergo a change in sexual orientation as a result. But, as Professor Roy Baumeister at Florida State University and others have shown, sexual attraction in many women seems to be more malleable (see note 3 below). If a teenage girl kisses another teenage girl, for whatever reason, and she finds that she likes it—then things can happen, and things can change. If a young woman finds her soulmate, and her soulmate happens to be female, then she may begin to experience feelings she's never felt before.

Especially if all the guys she knows are losers.

Which brings me to the second point I've encountered in my interviews with young people. Twenty years ago, when I opened my practice in a suburb of Washington DC, it was rare to find 14-year-old boys who were looking at pornography every day. Today it's common—in fact, it's becoming the norm. When I meet with a group of 14-year-old boys and I ask them, "how many of you guys subscribe to a porn site?", all hands go up. I don't believe them. But today, no boy wants to admit that he's the weirdo who doesn't look at online porn. Twenty years ago, hardcore pornography was tucked away in adult bookstores. Today any 14-year-old can access such photos online in seconds. Role models for young men, from pop singer John Mayer to the 2009 World Series MVP Hideki Matsui, talk openly about their collections of porn (see note 4, below).

Is there any connection between these two trends—between the rise in the number of young women who self-identify as lesbian or bisexual and the increasing normalization and acceptance of pornography in the lives of young men? Maybe there is. A young woman told me how her boyfriend several years ago suggested that she shave her pubic hair so that she might more closely resemble the porn stars who were this young man's most consistent source of sexual arousal. She now identifies herself as bisexual. "It was just such a welcome change, to snuggle under a blanket on the couch with my girlfriend, watch a movie, and talk about God and death and growing old, to be intimate emotionally and spiritually as well as physically. I don't know a guy who could even comprehend the conversations we have."

Note that the above was published back in 2010. It would be interesting to try to find statistics on whether the above-mentioned trends have accelerated since then.


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TwilightPrincess
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22 Jun 2019, 3:15 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I predict stuff very well.


Notice that I didn’t deny the statistics but the exaggeration and false assumptions you attached to it.

Maybe if you all spent less time coming up with theories, you’d have more time to meet people.



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Jun 2019, 3:30 pm

^ He lost credibility and my respect when he wrote:

Quote:
Especially if all the guys she knows are losers.


So if she is not attracted to any guy she knows then it means all the guys she knows are losers?

Is this really a PhD level writing?



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22 Jun 2019, 3:31 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I predict stuff very well.



Maybe if you all spent less time coming up with theories, you’d have more time to meet people.



What are you talking about?

I have TWO dates tomorrow.

Just notice that it's you who posts here way more than me in every thread, maybe you should go out and meet somebody.



TwilightPrincess
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22 Jun 2019, 3:37 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I predict stuff very well.



Maybe if you all spent less time coming up with theories, you’d have more time to meet people.



What are you talking about?

I have TWO dates tomorrow.

Just notice that it's you who posts here way more than me in every thread, maybe you should go out and meet somebody.


I’m not currently looking for anyone.

It’s hard not to respond to posts like that because it makes it seem as though guys have much less of a chance than they have.

It was frankly absurd.

There needs to be some balance here or it would be a nonstop discussion about alpha males and the need for guys to have it all. It’s just not productive.



Mona Pereth
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22 Jun 2019, 4:14 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ He lost credibility and my respect when he wrote:

Quote:
Especially if all the guys she knows are losers.


So if she is not attracted to any guy she knows then it means all the guys she knows are losers?

Is this really a PhD level writing?

A PhD psychologist writing for a popular magazine. Anyhow, he goes on to talk about a more specific possible issue.

To avoid derailing marknis's thread, let's discuss the larger social trends in more detail in the thread Claims that a few "super hot men" are hogging all the women.


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22 Jun 2019, 4:25 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
My point is not that everybody must have a great job, great body, great income, etc, to get a relationship. The point is that people with all the flaws I listed above in conjunction with each other are likely going to struggle finding a partner. You have to have qualities that are attractive enough to where at least some women think they could potentially consider you their best dating option to even get your foot in the door. Marknis, as he's indicated multiple times, can't even get a coffee date.

You were able to get into relationships, but Marknis can't. I don't accept that Marknis and virtually all of us in similar situations on the spectrum just so happen to simultaneously have horrendous luck with love and dating. There are observable patterns and parallels to be drawn that make much more sense than any other explanation. Maybe dating was different 20 or 30 years ago, I don't know, but considering that the ratio between women and men having sex within a single year used to be similar, but now it's come out that men are having sex at significantly lower annual rates and women are having sex at roughly the same annual rates, it stands to reason that some things have changed in the last 20 years.

What is your source of statistics on this matter?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/number-of-men-under-30-who-havent-had-sex-in-last-year-tripled-in-past-decade
Quote:
The share of U.S. adults reporting no sex reached an all-time high last year, according to the latest data from the General Social Survey. Nearly 23 percent of adults between the ages of 18 to 29 were celibate in 2018, more than double the number since 2008...

One surprising result from the data was that a much larger than expected number of the sexless individuals were men. For most of the past three decades, men and women in their twenties reported similar rates of sexlessness. Since 2008, however, the share of men younger than 30 reporting no sex has nearly tripled—compared to an eight percentage point increase reported among females of the same age group.




Image


But of course what I predict:

- WP women will deny the above, this is a given.
- The media is probably blaming it on gaming, and not on the elephant in the room: the rise of online dating (and "coincidentally" it boomed since 2008) which makes getting sex with super hot men very easy for average women, while making it very hard for average men to even get a date with an average woman.


We’re talking about a 10% difference here based on gender. It’s hardly the earth shattering difference you seem to be suggesting.

I’m hardly in a hurry to have sex with a super hot man. I’ve not tried online dating, either. More young people had sex in the past year than not.


There are two things that come to mind:

Women have been outpacing men in the pursuit of advanced degrees for something like the last 9 or 10 years. That is this age group.

The other elephant in the room is that with the rise of the Internet and online activity has led to stunted real life socialization. Like - why go out and meet people when you can have conversations on your phone? You don't have to read another person's facial expressions, their tone of voice, etc. And as men generally have fewer people in their real life social networks to begin with, there is a slew of guys out there who are totally socially incompetent and think that what they see on TV or movies is how life really is - or is supposed to be anyway. And those are the same guys who fall down the Red Pill rabbit holes and blame all women on their social problems, when in reality, the problem they THINK they have isn't the problem they REALLY have, which is that they have no idea how to effectively talk to women (or each other, for that matter) and they're pissed off about it.

And sure, women are having less sex too because, not only if we're trying to further our careers and we have very little time between homework, papers, exams, and so forth, AND if our options are limited to a guy who has no educational or life goals, who has no idea how to act in public, has no manners, can't hold a basic conversation, and is a bitter, whiny a**hole, why on earth would we bother?


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TwilightPrincess
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22 Jun 2019, 4:52 pm

^^ That’s true!

I guess I get frustrated when guys focus on the wrong reasons as to why they are struggling instead of working towards improving in the areas that they can. It’s a no win situation. Nothing productive can come from it.

I don’t want to belittle the trials of those who are struggling with depression. That needs to be addressed first, but approaching anything with a defeatist attitude just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I’ve only dated people who were much less educated than me, and in the future, I’m certainly more interested in finding someone that I can have a fulfilling intellectual dialogue with. I’m not saying that I’m that smart; it’s just that it’s nice to be able to have things in common with one’s partner. Being friends with a lover is ideal.



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22 Jun 2019, 5:19 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
^^ That’s true!

I guess I get frustrated when guys focus on the wrong reasons as to why they are struggling instead of working towards improving in the areas that they can. It’s a no win situation. Nothing productive can come from it.

I don’t want to belittle the trials of those who are struggling with depression. That needs to be addressed first, but approaching anything with a defeatist attitude just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I’ve only dated people who were much less educated than me, and in the future, I’m certainly more interested in finding someone that I can have a fulfilling intellectual dialogue with. I’m not saying that I’m that smart; it’s just that it’s nice to be able to have things in common with one’s partner. Being friends with a lover is ideal.


Men value a woman's appearance first, personality and everything else second. By and large, this is true of all men.

And they project this onto us. They assume that because they do this, we do it too. Which is not entirely correct.

Yes, we can see a handsome man and recognize and even admit that he's good looking. But the minute he opens his mouth and stupid and rude and obnoxious comes out, it tends to kill the good looks. And yes, handsome guys can also be creepy and weird. On the other hand, a guy may not be all that great looking, but if he's calm, kind, warm, caring, friendly, and skilled socially so that he can make women feel safe and accepted in his presence, etc., it can make up for a LOT.


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22 Jun 2019, 5:24 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I have TWO dates tomorrow.


Good luck with the fishing trip Boo!



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22 Jun 2019, 5:31 pm

Luhluhluh wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
^^ That’s true!

I guess I get frustrated when guys focus on the wrong reasons as to why they are struggling instead of working towards improving in the areas that they can. It’s a no win situation. Nothing productive can come from it.

I don’t want to belittle the trials of those who are struggling with depression. That needs to be addressed first, but approaching anything with a defeatist attitude just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I’ve only dated people who were much less educated than me, and in the future, I’m certainly more interested in finding someone that I can have a fulfilling intellectual dialogue with. I’m not saying that I’m that smart; it’s just that it’s nice to be able to have things in common with one’s partner. Being friends with a lover is ideal.


Men value a woman's appearance first, personality and everything else second. By and large, this is true of all men.

And they project this onto us. They assume that because they do this, we do it too. Which is not entirely correct.

Yes, we can see a handsome man and recognize and even admit that he's good looking. But the minute he opens his mouth and stupid and rude and obnoxious comes out, it tends to kill the good looks. And yes, handsome guys can also be creepy and weird. On the other hand, a guy may not be all that great looking, but if he's calm, kind, warm, caring, friendly, and skilled socially so that he can make women feel safe and accepted in his presence, etc., it can make up for a LOT.


A man who isn’t classically good looking can seem so if he has admirable personality traits. Likewise, a physically attractive man can seem unattractive if he’s unpleasant, cocky, arrogant, disrespectful, etc.

I want to be friends with guys first which enables me to see who they really are and not just how they present themselves.

It’s great for anyone to work on areas that they can improve on and have a positive attitude.



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22 Jun 2019, 5:33 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
That is strange, and utterly different from the women I've known over the years.

My dating experience is with single NT girls between the late 1980s and early 2000s I don't think I ever communicated with an Aspie female till joining WP. I honestly went through a couple of hundred dates so I kind of know a thing or two...


cyberdad wrote:
Dating is kind of more complex than our own personal experiences and human needs are actually more in common than we like to project/believe.

I really don't think this is a question of fundamental human needs. Women's sexuality tends to be more fluid than men's. See this review of the book Sexual Fluidity by Lisa Diamond.[/quote]
I think you are over-estimating how much fluidity influences dating preferences but I suppose I haven't in the "game" for about 15 years.



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22 Jun 2019, 5:37 pm

Luhluhluh wrote:
Men value a woman's appearance first, personality and everything else second. By and large, this is true of all men.

And they project this onto us. They assume that because they do this, we do it too. Which is not entirely correct.

Yes, we can see a handsome man and recognize and even admit that he's good looking. But the minute he opens his mouth and stupid and rude and obnoxious comes out, it tends to kill the good looks. And yes, handsome guys can also be creepy and weird. On the other hand, a guy may not be all that great looking, but if he's calm, kind, warm, caring, friendly, and skilled socially so that he can make women feel safe and accepted in his presence, etc., it can make up for a LOT.


I think we focusing on WP single Aspie males who are struggling with making the first move....those who do make the move then have to overcome the other "hurdles" you list but obviously many do make it as there's plenty of married men plus WP males in relationships who post on this forum.



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22 Jun 2019, 5:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Luhluhluh wrote:
Men value a woman's appearance first, personality and everything else second. By and large, this is true of all men. And they project this onto us. They assume that because they do this, we do it too. Which is not entirely correct. Yes, we can see a handsome man and recognize and even admit that he's good looking. But the minute he opens his mouth and stupid and rude and obnoxious comes out, it tends to kill the good looks. And yes, handsome guys can also be creepy and weird. On the other hand, a guy may not be all that great looking, but if he's calm, kind, warm, caring, friendly, and skilled socially so that he can make women feel safe and accepted in his presence, etc., it can make up for a LOT.
I think we focusing on WP single Aspie males who are struggling with making the first move....those who do make the move then have to overcome the other "hurdles" you list but obviously many do make it as there's plenty of married men plus WP males in relationships who post on this forum.
Ahh ... but if a man makes the first move for the first time in his life and strikes out, then that's a 100% failure rate, and he is unlikely to try again. What is such a loser supposed to do?