More Thought on Incels.

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auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 6:16 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

So, anecdotal stories from men about "I think my one friend is better looking than my other friend, but the better looking one struggles with women, maybe he needs confidence." How do you know, in the eyes of women, which one is actually more attractive?

it is complicated mixture of social intelligence, the right pheromones, the right personality match, the right looks [not necessarily the objectively best looks in terms of symmetry, which ordinarily is a reliable yardstick of general genetic fitness], mutual interest, and a certain je ne sais quoi that ties it all together. i don't have the answers but i have remembered impressions/hunches of/from watching people for decades now.

ezbzbfcg2
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15 Aug 2021, 6:29 pm

auntblabby wrote:

I would agree. I think there are some who may not have those things or be able to put them all together. And all the work in the world won't help. And, no, these men might not look all that bad to us. I think there is a looks threshold that a lot of men cannot or will not perceive, and it's nowhere near the Elephant Man mark.

Not blaming women for having a different standard of attraction. Quite the opposite. I'm saying they're the choosers in the heterosexual courtship. So, they get to decide if a man is x/10. Which is why I'm critical when a man tries to rate himself or another. Your self-rating may not be anywhere near what you think it is in the eyes of the opposite sex.

auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 6:35 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

i can only go on the empirical evidence of my experience with women, just one bit. and she quickly enough fled in horror when it dawned on her just how unprepared i was as a human much less a mate.

ironpony
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15 Aug 2021, 7:15 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Oh well I am now debating on the notion that if the video is incorrect. If the video is incorrect and women are not dating up, then why don't incel guys just date down?

If these men are truly ugly looking to women, and not even their ugly female equivalents want them, how much further down can they go? Is there even a "down" to date in the first place?

I'm not sure if they at the bottom or not. This is what I am trying to establish. I guess incels don't want to post pictures of women who have turned them down to get an idea of who they have tried to persue, looks wise.

But also, I feel that perhaps women tend not want a guy who is better looking than them if they are not maybe? For example, two women I dated were overweight compared to me. They would look at older pictures of me back when I weighed more and was not in as good of shape, and they said I was better looking back then. I would ask why, since I wasn't in as good of shape, and they said they just are attracted to guys that are bigger than them usually. But they still liked me and dated me of course.

But I found this interesting, that instead of wanting me to be in shape more, they were more attracted to the overweight me in the pictures. Could it be that women are not attracted to guys that are more in shape than them necessarily?

auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 7:24 pm

ironpony wrote:

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Oh well I am now debating on the notion that if the video is incorrect. If the video is incorrect and women are not dating up, then why don't incel guys just date down?

If these men are truly ugly looking to women, and not even their ugly female equivalents want them, how much further down can they go? Is there even a "down" to date in the first place?

I'm not sure if they at the bottom or not. This is what I am trying to establish. I guess incels don't want to post pictures of women who have turned them down to get an idea of who they have tried to persue, looks wise. But also, I feel that perhaps women tend not want a guy who is better looking than them if they are not maybe? For example, two women I dated were overweight compared to me. They would look at older pictures of me back when I weighed more and was not in as good of shape, and they said I was better looking back then. I would ask why, since I wasn't in as good of shape, and they said they just are attracted to guys that are bigger than them usually. But they still liked me and dated me of course. But I found this interesting, that instead of wanting me to be in shape more, they were more attracted to the overweight me in the pictures. Could it be that women are not attracted to guys that are more in shape than them necessarily?

my ex could have been the clone of darryl hannah [about 20 years older] and i was her first "average looking man."
pics of her exes made me feel somewhat inferior. they were 10s, all of 'em. in every respect. athletic and genius-level smart and high-functioning. but were not especially kind individuals, as is usually the case. there are many women who have instinctual excitement/attraction in the presence of attractive men, including involuntary vaginal secretions, even in reaction to photos. you can't get around this animal lust reaction. without this, it is an uphill climb for romance. there are not very many women who will prefer a lesser man right off the bat unless he has abundant compensatory qualities.

ezbzbfcg2
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15 Aug 2021, 7:43 pm

auntblabby wrote:

my ex could have been the clone of darryl hannah [about 20 years older] and i was her first "average looking man."

pics of her exes made me feel somewhat inferior. they were 10s, all of 'em. in every respect. athletic and genius-level smart and high-functioning. but were not especially kind individuals, as is usually the case. there are many women who have instinctual excitement/attraction in the presence of attractive men, including involuntary vaginal secretions, even in reaction to photos. you can't get around this animal lust reaction. without this, it is an uphill climb for romance. there are not very many women who will prefer a lesser man right off the bat unless he has abundant compensatory qualities.

Well, again, in her eyes, I'm sure they were more 7 or 8/10...you were probably a 4/10 to her she was settling with. Not to be rude, just pointing out our judgement of other men don't necessarily translate into women's eyes. And maybe, as ironpony's video highlighted, she was older and had the wherewithal to lower her standards a bit.

Regardless, after having her fun, she decided to give a man like you a shot. And it still fell apart. Probably because, in part, due to your lack of past success and inexperience. Also, Asperger's can add to the problems...even if she herself were Autistic (you said she looked like D.H. who is one of the few actresses confirmed diagnosed).

I've always admired your honesty and I'm not trying to bash you at all. What I have is a sympathy for outsiders. You're old enough and wise enough to see a lot of claims made on threads like these are well-intentioned, but not always as cut and dry, one-size-fits-all as the more successful would like to believe.

ezbzbfcg2
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15 Aug 2021, 7:49 pm

ironpony wrote:

But also, I feel that perhaps women tend not want a guy who is better looking than them if they are not maybe? For example, two women I dated were overweight compared to me. They would look at older pictures of me back when I weighed more and was not in as good of shape, and they said I was better looking back then. I would ask why, since I wasn't in as good of shape, and they said they just are attracted to guys that are bigger than them usually. But they still liked me and dated me of course.

But I found this interesting, that instead of wanting me to be in shape more, they were more attracted to the overweight me in the pictures. Could it be that women are not attracted to guys that are more in shape than them necessarily?

You're more handsome than you give yourself credit for. Those women were probably worried if you got too good looking by way of losing weight, you might dump them for better looking girls. Regardless, they still found you attractive at either weight. I've said if two men are of equal looks, then the thinner one will look better in comparison. The heavier one will improve his chances by losing weight.

But both men, at either weight, are more attractive than an uglier man, even if the ugly man is thin. It's not one-size-fits-all when it comes to self-improvement. One has to have an "in" to begin with, which is always about looks. More precisely how a woman regards the man's looks (not how he or other men think of them).

Goodlooking guy can lose weight and increase his odds. Ugly looking guy can't do the same, but will be told by men, "hey, losing weight worked for that guy, it'll also work for you!"

auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

my ex could have been the clone of darryl hannah [about 20 years older] and i was her first "average looking man."

pics of her exes made me feel somewhat inferior. they were 10s, all of 'em. in every respect. athletic and genius-level smart and high-functioning. but were not especially kind individuals, as is usually the case. there are many women who have instinctual excitement/attraction in the presence of attractive men, including involuntary vaginal secretions, even in reaction to photos. you can't get around this animal lust reaction. without this, it is an uphill climb for romance. there are not very many women who will prefer a lesser man right off the bat unless he has abundant compensatory qualities.

Well, again, in her eyes, I'm sure they were more 7 or 8/10...you were probably a 4/10 to her she was settling with. Not to be rude, just pointing out our judgement of other men don't necessarily translate into women's eyes. And maybe, as ironpony's video highlighted, she was older and had the wherewithal to lower her standards a bit. Regardless, after having her fun, she decided to give a man like you a shot. And it still fell apart. Probably because, in part, due to your lack of past success and inexperience. Also, Asperger's can add to the problems...even if she herself were Autistic (you said she looked like D.H. who is one of the few actresses confirmed diagnosed). I've always admired your honesty and I'm not trying to bash you at all. What I have is a sympathy for outsiders. You're old enough and wise enough to see a lot of claims made on threads like these are well-intentioned, but not always as cut and dry, one-size-fits-all as the more successful would like to believe.

thank you

she was on the spectrum and had other issues, at least a touch of Borderline. i did not give her the feeling of security and confidence she craved. i don't have that in me. not the way i was made. i realize one person's experience is one person's experience. but still there are some useful bits that can be gleaned from such.
btw, how do you know how Iron looks? can you show me his photo?

ezbzbfcg2
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15 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm

auntblabby wrote:

btw, how do you know how Iron looks? can you show me his photo?

You'd have to ask him.

Plus it wouldn't matter if you or I or he thought he was good looking or ugly or average. Women, like men, collectively have a concept of beauty in the opposite sex. However, that concept can't be conceptualized by men judging other men. Men you'd think of as average or ugly may be considered decent by most women, whereas men you think look like any other average Joe may, in fact, be seen as below-passing level in the eyes of women. Our ideas of looks in our fellow men is not, and cannot, be assumed to be an accurate gauge as to how women perceive their handsomeness.

And by looks, I'm not talking a haircut or clothing style. Changing those things helps if you've already got the goods to boost some points. If you don't have the goods, it's gonna be much, much harder. And men can't really tell if another men has the goods or not. Honestly, most of us are fairly neutral toward each other.

I'm saying that in a group of men that all look neutral to us, a group of women may come to a consensus on which are passable, which are in the ugly camp. For us to assume the guys in the ugly camp are average because they look average to other men is where the poor assumptions and ToM problems come in. It's not about our perceptions. We're usually clueless and think these two guy both look like regular Joes. Women, collectively, may reach a consensus on one being decent, the other hideous...and we don't see it and can't comprehend it.

Sweetleaf
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15 Aug 2021, 8:24 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

ironpony wrote:

What of women who'd prefer someone chubbier rather than skinny? I think if I had been confronted with my boyfriend vs. a person who looks like him but skinny, I would not have gone for the skinny one.

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auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 8:28 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

can you please tell me what about the chubby makes you feel better?

StrayCat81
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15 Aug 2021, 8:40 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

Goodlooking guy can lose weight and increase his odds. Ugly looking guy can't do the same, but will be told by men, "hey, losing weight worked for that guy, it'll also work for you!"

Can still compensate with fat wallet and/or personality?

edit since noticed weight discussion:
While I'm not girly girl nor manly man, I'm joining chubby lover club. Bodies like that are soft, squishy and cute. Very cuddly :3

Now humans obviously ruin them with awful personalities, but plump bodies themselves are still very nice :3

Last edited by StrayCat81 on 15 Aug 2021, 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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15 Aug 2021, 8:41 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

Goodlooking guy can lose weight and increase his odds. Ugly looking guy can't do the same, but will be told by men, "hey, losing weight worked for that guy, it'll also work for you!"

Can still compensate with fat wallet and/or personality?

bill gates compensated by sheer intelligence which melinda french found attractive. intelligence is attracted to other intelligence.

ezbzbfcg2
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15 Aug 2021, 8:42 pm

If two men are of equal looks, one fat, one skinny, the skinnier one has the advantage, statistically. Then again, some women may sincerely prefer the chubby guy. Others may think they have less of a chance of losing him if he stays chubby.

REGARDLESS, the woman would have to find him attractive to begin with. Even if she truly prefers her boyfriend chubby, she'd still rather take the same boyfriend skinny than settle for a chubby, ugly guy. This simply reiterates what I said. He still needs a 'foot-in-the-door' lookswise.

"That girl prefers chubby guys, so just add a little weight and she'll like you!" is a false-correlation. She likes her boyfriend, whom she already finds attractive, chubby. If an ugly guy gains or loses weight, it won't make her find the ugly guy anymore attractive attractive. Which is why, I say, one-size-fits-all advice fails to take in the woman's perspective of attraction.

Last edited by ezbzbfcg2 on 15 Aug 2021, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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15 Aug 2021, 8:43 pm

auntblabby wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

can you please tell me what about the chubby makes you feel better?

Same.

Who wants to cuddle up to a rock?

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Sweetleaf
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15 Aug 2021, 8:47 pm

auntblabby wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

can you please tell me what about the chubby makes you feel better?

Idk, I just like that better...one specific thing is its nicer to snuggle with that body type, or at least I think so. I don't think that is the only reason but that is at least one thing. That said me and my boyfriend could both use to get some more exercise in which we're working on(I am skinny but could be more fit) but for sure I would not like it if he got skinny luckily I do not think that is likely but for health reasons it would be good for him to loose a few pounds at least.

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