Enough of the 'Damn women rejected me' threads please

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johnc
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15 Oct 2010, 4:00 pm

Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.



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15 Oct 2010, 4:17 pm

johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


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15 Oct 2010, 4:20 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?



You know, if we don't instinctively get it, it still feels false and unreal no matter what we learn from the field book.



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15 Oct 2010, 4:31 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Yes, I've read a lot on this subject, it's a matter somewhat close to my heart :) Like I said, I know what the signals are. I just don't seem to be able to actually see them in real life.

Perfect example: Earlier this year a friend asked me what I thought of a female friend of his, as she had mentioned to him that she liked me. This of course came as a complete surprise to me, but next time we met I was really paying as close attention as I could (without, y'know, staring) to see if I could notice any kind of sign or hint. Not a sausage, sadly.



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15 Oct 2010, 4:32 pm

Aimless wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


You know, if we don't instinctively get it, it still feels false and unreal no matter what we learn from the field book.

There's a thread in the main forum http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt140351.html by someone who had to work it out for himself, he watched people and wrote his own 'social protocol'. You gotta do what you gotta do.
As an aside NTs are often consciously aware these interaction are hocus, it's just it's the way it's done.



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15 Oct 2010, 4:35 pm

johnc wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Yes, I've read a lot on this subject, it's a matter somewhat close to my heart :) Like I said, I know what the signals are. I just don't seem to be able to actually see them in real life.

Perfect example: Earlier this year a friend asked me what I thought of a female friend of his, as she had mentioned to him that she liked me. This of course came as a complete surprise to me, but next time we met I was really paying as close attention as I could (without, y'know, staring) to see if I could notice any kind of sign or hint. Not a sausage, sadly.

You know one weird thing is that when a girl is interested in you they often appear to completely ignore you. They're interested in you so are shy. It's really hard to pick that one up, was for me!
I think thats why people drink it allows them to get over that a bit



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15 Oct 2010, 4:55 pm

nostromo wrote:
johnc wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Yes, I've read a lot on this subject, it's a matter somewhat close to my heart :) Like I said, I know what the signals are. I just don't seem to be able to actually see them in real life.

Perfect example: Earlier this year a friend asked me what I thought of a female friend of his, as she had mentioned to him that she liked me. This of course came as a complete surprise to me, but next time we met I was really paying as close attention as I could (without, y'know, staring) to see if I could notice any kind of sign or hint. Not a sausage, sadly.

You know one weird thing is that when a girl is interested in you they often appear to completely ignore you. They're interested in you so are shy. It's really hard to pick that one up, was for me!
I think thats why people drink it allows them to get over that a bit

yes, i completely agree about how women can be. i get very very shy and cannot look a man in the eyes or even face in his direction if i find him attractive. it's silly.


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15 Oct 2010, 6:08 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
BPalmer wrote:
sunshower wrote:
I have several male friends I would classify as "ladies men" (highly promiscuous and sought out by women) and they all have this in common; they have lots of female friends, and a deep understanding of women, how they think, what they like, etc.

But let's face it, they wouldn't have developed an understanding of what women want if they were ugly (or with little earning potential) in the first place.

not true, the biggest ladies' man i ever met was bookstore clerk with bad acne scars. he made women feel special, appreciated, and cared for.


Agreed - the ones I know range between good and average looking, and none of them seem to have good earning potential. I think maybe a good looking guy could become a ladies man faster, but an ugly guy is equally able with perhaps a little more effort. Women are hardwired to be more attracted to personality than appearance.


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15 Oct 2010, 6:08 pm

Greendragon wrote:
nthach wrote:
Greendragon wrote:

She points in your direction with her leg, foot or shoulders.
She leans toward you while talking.
She plays with or tosses her hair.
She fidgets with a piece of jewelry (like an earring) or strokes the stem of her glass.
She keeps her eyes locked on you while she talks or drinks.
She mirrors your body movements (for example, if you put your hand on the table, she quickly does the same).
She smiling when you check her out.

And there's the problem - body language in which us aspies CANNOT read AT ALL. In a perfect world, women would be direct to us verbally.


Ahhh but it is not a perfect world and there is no way you will meet a lot of women who come right out and say "I like you". That makes them too vulnerable. So the body language sends the signal and she waits to see if you respond so she won't get hurt. It is how we are wired to find our mate without getting stomped on and turning bitter in the process ...

YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals. This is a good short list. Sure you are not good at body language but you can teach yourself a lot of things ... and then send the signal back to her ... lean in, smile, make her laugh ... DO NOT TOUCH HER in the first meeting! lol that may get you in trouble.

One of the most sexy things for me is if the guy I am into leans forward and brushes my hair out of my face (I have the wild tossled look so it goes everywhere) ... that kind of touch is great as long as she is into you.

Also had some weirdo walk up to me and pluck a grey hair out of my head and he actually thought he was doing me a favor ... he got labeled a weirdo and we never went past that one moment.

You can do it ... just think more positively about it and yourself.

Oh and confidence, NOT arrogance, is very attractive in a man.

That is very important so keep that in mind.

I have the confidence part down - or so says an acquaintence who is a somewhat close friend of one of my childhood friends.

I just wish there was an easier way to practice this than at a bar. Somewhere where the social tension is relatively low, then I'll work my way up.



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15 Oct 2010, 7:02 pm

LittleTigger wrote:
This is exactly why I gave up, too many rules
and too many ways to get in trubble, thank
Mew dad has had all those good lawyers
in the past and I am still an innocent boy.



Yes, and I almost gave up too because I hate rules. Just be straight forward about it, right?
Right and then I won't be rejected when I just walk up to some hunky guy and say that. He will say, 'I like you too".
Chances are there is a stop-dead gorgeous woman behind me and I just get a glance (I'm cute and being honest here about it for the point).

Vulnerability.

Vulnerability stops everyone. Stops you, stops me, stops the girl next to you on the .. bus, the guy sitting on the park bench. We are all worried and scared of being rejected. It hurts.

So eventually the hitting the female over the head with the club gave way to the "dating ritual" and we feel more secure in the silent "rules".

Just to let you know I didn't know half of what I know now when I was in my 20's.. in fact I knew nothing. I was not allowed to date all through high school AND went to an all girls school to boot.

So college and after ... all of my 20's were the screw-up grounds and with every mess and blunder I learned to read men. Can't tell you how many times I got my heart broken. But with each one I got closer to understanding to who I really was attracted to AND how to read the cues for those interested in me and by my late LATE 30's I was in control, no more rejections. Now in my 40's I am the one choosing ... I also read books and articles to get a broader view of it ..listened to my friends talk. And inside I was so irritated with the "game" and "rules" but either you join in or you are left behind.

So you don't have to be an Aspie to not get this stuff automatically ... I have been tested because of my son and I am NT ... you just don't have to have the exposure either. Aspies are not alone ... you just have a bit more of a steeper hill to surmount because it's hard to translate on the fly. It's hard to read a face, to catch the look, to follow the body when you are not used to it ... but you can train. Cops train all the time in it ... and they are not born lie detectors. Sure, NTs but you would not believe me how many NTs miss cues.

Easier for me to learn ... sure. But I learned the same way, the same heart ache and the same frustration ... why can't it be simple?!? And it took me 20 years to learn it.

Because WE humans are not simple. So either we work hard to be where we want to be or we sideline ourselves and find a way to convince ourself that we didn't really want what we are watching.


And you know what? I may not end up in the love of my life in the end but I am very content with how I tried, how I learned and that I did not let myself give up. Goodness knows I did not learn everything either but I have learned and I have had both good and bad relationships.

That is worth all the hassles and tears ... 20 plus years later.

Live for no regrets but wisely. You do know what the laws are - you won't break a law. Maybe a social blunder but who you blunder with will pass on or maybe they will be cool and laugh with you.

But you learn from it. Don't give up.

That is all I am saying ... don't give up because you are worth the effort.


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15 Oct 2010, 7:12 pm

johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.


This is going to sound rather flip but you have to practice it in the wild... someone mentioned videos ... great idea, WATCH MOVIES.

Actors are great at projecting the reality but that crying on the film is not crying for them. Its an act. The love scenes are acts. So watch them closely ... practice body language reading on that ...
practice on yourself in the mirror ...

then sit in a bookstore or in the mall and watch people ... make up stories to go with what they are acting like ... I know this sounds silly but it gets you cued into trying to decipher the face, the body ... are they walking fast? talking on the phone? is that their hand rushing through their hair? So they are agitated .. perhaps arguing with thier father on the phone ... no, usually a boyfriend or girlfriend can get you irritated in public.

So take it to the wild and practice with making up stories ... and then go to a nice quiet place to meet people (meetups in your city are a great place to meet all sorts of people who like rock climbing or hiking or eating out or cooking or novels or ... anything) and practice there while making friends.

Anything we learn we have to practice ... if you have the academics ... apply them to the familiar around you and then the unfamiliar...

Trying won't hurt anyone and nobody notices the people watchers but the people watchers ... there are a lot of people who enjoy sitting back and just watching their world around them.


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johnc
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15 Oct 2010, 7:19 pm

Greendragon wrote:
johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.


This is going to sound rather flip but you have to practice it in the wild...


Your posts on this subject are now making me angry, so I'm bowing out of this thread.



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15 Oct 2010, 7:27 pm

nostromo wrote:
Aimless wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


You know, if we don't instinctively get it, it still feels false and unreal no matter what we learn from the field book.

There's a thread in the main forum http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt140351.html by someone who had to work it out for himself, he watched people and wrote his own 'social protocol'. You gotta do what you gotta do.
As an aside NTs are often consciously aware these interaction are hocus, it's just it's the way it's done.


True, interactions are hocus and we play them anyways ... and honestly, NTs have learned what we are talking about ... it was not instinctive. NTs mimick as babis. My aspie did not. That was what alerted me to my son being different .. he did not mimick us. My parents and doctors blew me off but I stuck with my gut and by the time they dxd him, I had already gotten him past the no eye contact and no affection response simply by teaching him much differently than my other two. We touched, talked, explained, showed over and over again.

So as adults you have to start at the basics with mimic and as you grow accustomed to it it may become natural .. it may not ... but I do know it gets easier as you continue ...


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15 Oct 2010, 7:28 pm

nostromo wrote:
johnc wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Yes, I've read a lot on this subject, it's a matter somewhat close to my heart :) Like I said, I know what the signals are. I just don't seem to be able to actually see them in real life.

Perfect example: Earlier this year a friend asked me what I thought of a female friend of his, as she had mentioned to him that she liked me. This of course came as a complete surprise to me, but next time we met I was really paying as close attention as I could (without, y'know, staring) to see if I could notice any kind of sign or hint. Not a sausage, sadly.

You know one weird thing is that when a girl is interested in you they often appear to completely ignore you. They're interested in you so are shy. It's really hard to pick that one up, was for me!
I think thats why people drink it allows them to get over that a bit


LOL, yes, drinking does allow one to break through that shyness!
Sometimes way too much!


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15 Oct 2010, 7:30 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
johnc wrote:
Greendragon wrote:
YES, it is hard but you train yourself to watch for the signals.


Sorry, but this seems to me kinda like telling a blind person that they don't need braille, if they just look hard enough at the printed text. I know, academically, what the signals are. I just can't seem to see them 'in the wild'.
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Breaking it down bit by bit is perfect. You don't learn calculus by reading the whole equation ... emotions readind is just as complex.


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15 Oct 2010, 7:36 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
nostromo wrote:
johnc wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i get what you're saying with that. have you tried to learn about the signals, by reading about it or looking at tutorial videos? it has helped me a lot. i am learning to read facial expressions better - not related to dating, but i think it is possible to learn people's signals, maybe. maybe it is not understandable by just looking really hard, but by decoding it bit by bit?


Yes, I've read a lot on this subject, it's a matter somewhat close to my heart :) Like I said, I know what the signals are. I just don't seem to be able to actually see them in real life.

Perfect example: Earlier this year a friend asked me what I thought of a female friend of his, as she had mentioned to him that she liked me. This of course came as a complete surprise to me, but next time we met I was really paying as close attention as I could (without, y'know, staring) to see if I could notice any kind of sign or hint. Not a sausage, sadly.

You know one weird thing is that when a girl is interested in you they often appear to completely ignore you. They're interested in you so are shy. It's really hard to pick that one up, was for me!
I think thats why people drink it allows them to get over that a bit

yes, i completely agree about how women can be. i get very very shy and cannot look a man in the eyes or even face in his direction if i find him attractive. it's silly.



But absolutely normal to get shy around a nice looking man. Me too. I just remind myself he is just as vulnerable as I am and then talk to his buddy. Great way to meet him and become friends to see if you want to date him.


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