"Heartless b*****s"(includes words of advice)

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There isn't anything wrong with being a nice man, but as I have said, maybe niceness is not the issue, maybe you need to amplify other parts of your personality, not just being nice. Nice is an attractive trait, but on its own (or worse, backed up with unconfident traits), may not be enough.

I agree with Mountzion.

This is the most sensible thread i've read in the l&d section btw. Proper mature conversation.

You can't judge a book by it's cover. People have layers.

It makes you quite the joker, Boo.

I tend to reserve the phrase "nice guy" for self proclaimed nice guys, and the term "decent man" for gut who are not crude and gross.

The majority of women will take the latter.

Indeed. I think what is sad is that most of the guys who fall into this category don't realise they are doing it, there's no introspection so they continue these behaviours and back them up with more insecurity and more unconscious resentment. It's not even that they are actively being this way, they are just naive.

Go make me a muffin, wife.

yes.

The problem with the whole "nice guys" vs "jerks" thing is that women are trying to split the difference on a lot of male traits.

It's easy to say, "I want a confident man who isn't a doormat and isn't a jerk." But, the truth of the matter is that a man's formative experiences rarely allow him to shoot down the middle, at once being confident while also being nice. Life tends to beat you too far in one direction or another. Confidence and kindness rarely go hand-in-hand. In fact, most confidence arises from eventually saying "to hell with this, I'm taking over before all you idiots break something".

The other problem is that if a guy is confident and he's not a jerk, he's less likely to approach. Women don't like to admit it, but the fact is one of the reasons they go for jerks is because jerks make them feel better about themselves. A confident non-jerk is less likely to to be trolling for a lay; consequently, a confident non-jerk is a lower probability candidate for an easy ego boost for the ladies.

In that regard, it's no different than guys going for sluttier, uglier chicks (the Tiger Woods Method). A lot of human reproduction is about probabilities. The goal, after all, is to produce offspring, not spend the next year pining for one person and then failing. The only people who pine are those without viable options.

Most human beings will take a lower quality pairing in exchange for a higher probability of sex. So, a confident jerk will still beat out a confident non-jerk simply because the non-jerk is a lower probability target. Jerks win because the math is on their side. They attack more often, attracting women who want an ego boost, meaning they score more total hits.

Mr E guy, it depends what the indibidual's goal is though.

There are people looking to score, to hook up, whose main goal, main internal indicator of their own worth is whether another person wants to have sex with them and they'll take anyone.

And there is the person who is looking for a long term partner in life. I've said it before and i'll say it again, but maybe this is just a female perspective, it's more important to me to find someone compatible who I enjoy being around and who I respect than it is for me to have just anyone to "validate" my worth through their sexual attraction to me. A bit of lust has got to be there of course, but there needs to be more to the relationship as well for me to be happy.

Huh? Confident and nice men are very common. Confidence and kindness go hand in hand often. Most of the men I know are both. I wonder if men who are loud extroverts are being mischaracterized as "jerks" or if introverted but confident men are being mischaracterized as "not confident".

Yeah, I had a similar eyebrow-raising moment here. A high percentage of my male friends are confident and good people. I hesitate to say confident and 'nice' especially with one of my friends who is a lawyer. If he were nice all the time, he'd likely not win a lot of cases...but he is good. He certainly isn't a jerk. The same could be said for a number of my male friends.

I am very confident professionally, but much less so socially - it's like a Jekyll and Hyde
thing. professionally, it has always been my policy to be "nice until it's time to stop being nice" (intellectually, not physically of course). Someone crossed that line with me today and I ended having to give it to them with both barrels. The result: I prevailed, and my "opponent" sent me an extremely friendly e-mail to make amends.

Now if I could only do that with women...

Confident laid back men are usually nice as they don't feel this need to shove people around for results.

The insecure types are the ones who shove people around in an attempt to mask their insecurities because they feel it's better to be feared than loved. Since it's been hard for them to gain love, they go for fear!

Could it be.....a female poster on wrongplanet....who makes sense?!?!?!?!?

Anyway, in response to the OP, women have to come up with a rationalization for why they like bad boys and dislike nice guys, so they project negative traits onto the latter. Very sleazy....it's bad enough how women treat nice guys, do they really have to go and make up s**t about them too?

I thought about it in a way of look here are a couple of flaws I should start working on but you are more than free to refuse to accept the reality that you may need to change your attitude and complain about an article that explains why things arent working for you at the moment. Good luck with that attitude.

Y'know, I read it and virtually all of these traits have to do with guys already in relationships. In other words, a woman wouldn't know that a man does these things unless she were already dating him. So explain how I can't even get in a relationship hmm?

As far as Im concerned there are two kind of people when approaching others:
-the ones that try to understand things from beyond without getting overtly involved and expect the problem to solve itself(sometimes they dont even bother trying to understand things and they just complain)
-and the ones that get their hands dirty trying to solve this problem.

Again you are free to choose which side you belong to but dont complain to me about making the wrong choice.