NT female seeks input on AS male's fears

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All guys fear rejection but once you stop being afriad of it the more risks your willing to take.

That sounds perfectly NT to me! In fact, I have a friend who is in exactly this situation with his wife. She sought and has been offered a job overseas, while he is tied down here. He is upset about her lack of commitment to the marriage, and how his wants and needs seem so irrelevant to her. But he's acting like Mr. Tough Guy. On one hand, he enjoys the bar scene and casual sex and wouldn't mind a return to that. On the other hand, he wants children, and expected that with her. I feel bad for him. She cheated on him a while back, he forgave her, and now this is how she returns the favor? So if she leaves, he'll feel 50/50 sorry/not sorry.


The first time, I was gone for 6 weeks. The second time, I left for 3 years. In both cases, those periods were unbearably long for him.


You're right, NTs do not interrogate each other that way. It is considered rude, creepy, and an invasion of privacy. It's not that anyone is pretending to have unconditional trust. It's that NTs trust each other to spontaneously share relevant information, so usually there is no need (except in a criminal/legal context). Since what is relevant to NTs is not relevant to my context-impaired guy, he doesn't say much. And what he does say is rarely enough for me to "see" the whole picture. Likewise, many details I felt it was important for him to know, I now realize were received as irrelevant noise. I may as well have turned on a radio and played static. So I am trying to learn what sounds like static to him, so I can edit it out, so neither of us feel stupid.

I'm also used to the interrogations now, and understand where it comes from. So while it is tiring at times, I don't mind. I have nothing to hide. I've also learned to lose the inhibitions about interrogating him the same way. However, that is much more taxing. First I have to explain why the information is relevant. Then I'll get a "non-answer" that strikes me as slimy and evasive. I no longer think that is his intent - rather, I think he is pretending to understand the question, when he doesn't.


That makes sense. But what do you mean by "Could I be the guardian of sexuality for a while?" I think I'm already doing it, by leaving him alone and not tempting him, or putting him in a position where he has to say no, and feel guilt about it. Is that what you mean?


If you mean admitting insecurities, YES. But there can be many other factors that have nothing to do with you, like fear of social perceptions and expectations. Even today, even professional women, feel insecure that being divorced makes them damaged goods. They fear that people will think, "feh, she couldn't hang on to her man - there must be something wrong with her." Also, fear of tangible losses: "How will I support myself?" "Who will shovel the driveway after a big snow?" "Who will do the laundry when I just don't feel like it?" Women may not articulate such things, for fear of offending the man they are supposed to love as a human being - not as a bill-payer, snow-shoveler, and laundry-doer.


Definitely! Sounds like I should lose all those NT inhibitions, and hammer away with questions. I always have a lot!


Yes - my Aspie has made me feel many uncomfortable or terrible things, that slowly I realized he's probably felt all his life. Misinterpreted. Misunderstood. Convicted for trying to do the right thing, judged over the tiniest details. Isolated, tongue-tied, trapped in my own head. Gripped with anxiety over the unpredictability, fear of volcanic anger for no particular reason. A hostile, unforgiving place. Psychologically, what it might be like to learn Korean, in a North Korean concentration camp. The fact that Aspies keep trying really amazes me sometimes. NTs have their own struggles, but we're surrounded by people who can relate and sympathize.


It bothers me less than it used to, in part because I have a lot more data now. Also, if I zoom way out, look objectively at the situation from a bird's eye point of view, he becomes more predictable. I can't predict what he'll do, day-to-day, minute-to-minute, but broader, longer trends are becoming easier to extrapolate.


Agreed. Thank you for the compliment! I'm so happy that's helpful. Dishonesty is a big issue with my Aspie, so I am just as happy for the chance to practice explaining. For NTs, fibs and white lies often have good motivations, and are meant to fulfill needs Aspies don't always have. But they are heavily dependent on social context and non-verbal cues. So to someone without those needs, and/or who doesn't "see" all the context and non-verbal cues, well, then, yes, it must look like a world full of crappy people telling each other stupid lies for no reason. So please feel free to ask, if there is something you would like explained.


Bingo. I think that explains a lot about my situation. Problem is, to NTs, that sounds self-serving and delusional. "So when do we get to meet your new guy?" "Oh, he loves me so much he won't talk to me right now. Besides, he's so special, you'll probably never get to meet him." People would think I'm living in fantasyland, and I'd get written off as a loony. The isolation of being the NT partner to an AS guy poses its own set of challenges.

I suppose this explains behavior that made NO sense to me whatsoever. As a friend to this guy, I said and did all kinds of nice things, yet watched him drop everything and run to appease that screeching alcoholic spouse, over and over. The worse she got, the more gobs of money he threw at her, did anything she demanded, however outrageous or crazy. At the very end, he even demanded my help to keep the marriage together. I fought all of my instincts and did what he asked, because I understood that it was all about the kids, and he was panicking and didn't know what to do. But all I could see was that (1) he rewarded nasty, bullying behavior, and punished decent, kind behavior; and (2) all the worse because it was so pointless, given that any marital relationship was long gone, and the coming split was obvious, inevitable, and frankly best for all involved. It was beyond painful and infuriating to observe this, so my view was, he got exactly the wife he asked for.

I began learning about AS a short time later, and obviously I don't feel that way anymore. But the point stands: giving priority to matters that carry real and dire consequences, such as screaming, abusive spouses, only invites more of it. Relegating people you trust and like to the bottom of the heap, will piss them off and alienate them, perhaps permanently. I understand so much more now, but I still have extreme difficulty grasping impulses that result in rewarding bad behavior (thereby inviting more of it) and punishing good behavior (thereby driving it out of your life, and perhaps turning a friend into an enemy). I intend no offense, but I perceive it as a completely backward order of priorities. Can you please explain more about this?

I don't think this is a factor of AS so much as it is a factor of abuse. Abusers always seek to make themselves and their own wants the no. 1 priority of their victims, and they have lots of tricks to do that. Getting stuck in or running back to abusive relationships isn't at all unique to people with AS.

edgewaters: Wow. Very fair point. I watched my mother behave the same way for years. She ignored and neglected me in favor of her abuser over and over. I'm sure that's one reason it was so upsetting to see that pattern repeat itself, again with me on the short end of the stick. Thanks for making that connection - I couldn't agree more.

I thought I was the one at risk of being overwhelming! I've seen some NTs here walk out in disgust after being treated to (I guess) too much Aspie bluntness and resentment, and we Aspies can get into fights with each other too, but you seem to be doing fine.....Aspies are often very strong with the written word, and I think most of the overloads come from live situations where we don't have time to think about what we're saying. Anyway I hope you stick around to give and get a bit of help now and then. I think we need NTs, and there aren't that many of them around here.

Part II:


The "glass wall" concept is well known here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt71654.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt28583.html

Your description of sex reminds me of the descriptions by Susie Orbach, though she was writing about the general population. If I get the time I'll try and transcribe a bit of it. My theory about Aspies, sex and the glass wall is that it's the only time we stop this incessant thinking long enough to connect with our own emotional side. We often think so much that we drown out the beat of our own hearts.


Uncanny........my last partner didn't seem to like going out either. She wasn't quite so extreme with sex, but then it's hard to tell with women because they don't usually initiate, and I'm afraid I don't always get their hints in time. All I know is that she was hardly ever unreceptive. My only worry was that although I loved being in that lovely bubble with her, reality might somehow catch us up........we were both very "couply" by nature, and my brain told me to break that up a bit for the sake of sustainability, but I just couldn't, unless she'd ask for that first, which she never did.


I thought it was only Aspie men who liked geeky women.


Traditionally I'm very harsh about "sins of the flesh," but I think his wife brought it on herself. I hope he doesn't feel too guilt-ridden about it. Aspies often do, I think. Black-and-white thinking, perfectionism, inability to read people means you don't "know" what they're up to, so it's tempting to cling to Abrahamic rules.


It's what happens when your partner and your child both need you at the same time. For a neurotypical, it's probably not a big deal - they'd just multi-task their way through it. But with me, I'm fazed if 2 people even try to talk to me at the same time. Also the sheer strength of my amorous feelings to a partner would really scare me........I'd be supposedly looking after my son but my mind would be with my partner.....I never knew if he noticed, but felt that he did. It's knowing that (in my case) your child and your partner are only tolerating each other, that the child is a reminder to the partner of your previous relationship, that the partner underscores for the child the end of that relationship......children don't divorce, as the Relate people used to say. But, I've heard reports of people who did well. My partners may have been unusual. One grabbed hold of me the moment I arrived and showered me with hugs and kisses. My son had arrived with me and we'd been quite close on the journey, then suddenly, Dad's attention is gone, no warning. I'd have been more assertive and slowed my partner down a bit, but the only solution I could think of was to push HER away, and I just couldn't do that. And I've only just realised now that her behaviour was pretty insensitive. She clutched me so tightly that I couldn't have disengaged without using some force. What do you think?

Another partner was furious when I suddenly had to look after my son on the day she and I were to go on a country walk. I didn't cancel it, I just said I'd have to bring him along. I could understand her disappointment, but if she'd only reassured me on calming down that she understood my dilemma......ultimately, I'm afraid the child comes first. You NEVER come between parent and child. There are very few situations in other relationships where another person is more important than the partner. It can come as a shock when you have to take a back seat. All those old stories about wicked step-parents, they're based on real life.

My last wife was always polite to my son, but somehow didn't show respect for the bond. She cited one of her reasons for leaving me.......she'd bummed thousands of pounds off me and wasted most of it, secretly borrowed from a loan shark to supplement the money I'd handed over for the wedding and then had to beg me to bail her out when as always she found she couldn't meet the payments, and I'd begun to put a brake on what I gave her......I resisted her pressure to "support her in her drive to get onto the housing ladder" which meant buying a house of her own (with a mortgage as well of course) when house prices were at their peak and set to fall. It would have been financial suicide. So I quietly refused, suffered her remonstrations and disdain.........but she left me because (in her terms) I lent my son twice the amount that I'd refused to give her, when he wanted to buy a house a year or two later. So to avoid abandonment, I would have had to refuse to give him anything, so she wouldn't feel jealous. There were little things too - if the three of us watched a new film and he had to leave half way through, she would practically demand the two of us saw the rest of it next........I would want us to hold back and see the rest with my son......do you think I'm too sensitive?

I'll try. First, you do have to try to understand that almost any type of behaviour can be counterproductive in the wrong circumstances. I understand your point of view when it comes to his ex-wife, so I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but that is an extreme case. And bullies tend to exploit whatever weaknesses they can. His wife sounds as though she was good at that. Watching a bully win - anything - is a frustrating experience. But I think there are several layers here; I'll try to get inside his head, but first I'm going to try to explain the general principle.

Let's take an example that makes more sense. Say I have to do my taxes, pay a bill or two, answer a client's e-mail, and contact a friend. If I fail to pay the taxes, I'm screwed. So I make sure I get those done. The bills may not be quite as urgent, but still, it is much safer to get them paid before there's trouble. Okay, I get those paid. Then I have to answer the client, or pretty soon I won't have money to pay any bills with. By then, a combination of executive function issues which caused me to take longer than I 'should' have and simple exhaustion from dealing with all that I had to in order to get those out of the way keeps me from doing more. So I don't get around to contacting my friend. Depending on what my life is like, how many nasty little surprises disrupt my days (and breaks in routine cost me, and most of us, more time and leave less for other things than is true for most people), and what distracts me when, it can take a long time to get around to something I've had to learn can wait.

It is a strategy to function. In the examples above, it works, fairly well. Do I want to alienate the few friends I have? No. But we all have to make choices, those who aren't patient never became friends to begin with, so I've learned that, at least up to a point, that's something I can 'let ride'. Note that this is not a conscious choice; it's an automatic reaction I've learned as a means of coping. If coping is easier for you, that may sound absurd, but some things are a huge struggle to me. (I can do my income taxes in a few hours at most - but the mental effort involved is so exhausting, I feel as I've been in a physical battle for days. There are specific reasons, but those are probably unique to me.* Your guy may not have problems doing his taxes, but there are other things that will wear him out more than you might expect.) So I have to learn automatic strategies to take care of what must be taken care of. If I don't, it won't all get done, at least some of the time.

Anything that isn't carefully thought through does go awry sometimes. That's some of the problem, I think, with his allowing his ex to call the shots. He's simply learned, in order to function at all, to jump in response to any threat of trouble, legitimate and reasonable or not. And to put off what can be, until he can cope. Number two, remember, she had hostages: the kids. That means even if he thought it through, it wouldn't have been that easy a call. And, despite the fact my instinct is always to fight injustice and fight back against bullies - none of us has that much energy. We have to learn to cave, or they'd exhaust and destroy us before we made it out of high school. I had it relatively easy, in that I was able to use my wits to keep the bullies at bay somewhat. They still wore me down. (Phoebe Prince's school superintendent taught physics at my high school while I was there - and before I ever read his name or knew who he was, I saw quotes from him in her case that reminded me of the crap my HS administration used to dish out. I don't care what the legal system says - her school system failed her. Badly.)

Do I hate that bullies can sometimes exploit my weaknesses? Of course I do. But no one can fight all day, every day. So you learn to cave sometimes. Put that together with the automatic routines you learn, and things such as you describe happen all too easily. Abstractly, you make perfect sense, but I've been in his shoes enough to understand why he couldn't do any better. And, of course, it is much easier to see that a relationship is doomed beyond hope when you're outside it. When you're inside it, trying to do what you can for your kids, enduring the bullying, trying to figure out how to cope, it's much harder to think clearly enough to see that.

This doesn't mean I'm saying he used a good strategy in this case. But I've made mistakes in my life that I can see in hindsight I might have handled better - and then there are others that, even if I can see in theory there were better choices, I still cannot imagine that I could, in practice, ever have managed to make those choices work. There are times I know I'm shooting myself in the foot, and I still can't figure out a better answer.

Finally, keep in mind that once he's done all the things he absolutely has to do, he's tired, and still subject to other factors such as getting distracted (I may be king of the universe when it comes to distraction, but I don't know of anyone on the spectrum who doesn't have at least a healthy dose of that) and worrying about whether it would be a good time to call (as I mentioned in my last post). So if he has any time left, the odds of getting things right by then are pretty low. The way you describe his ex-wife, he was probably using up two to three times his usual mental energy just trying to cope with her. She sounds completely nuts. And crazy is especially hard for anyone to deal with who likes things to make sense. (Yes, I know most NTs like things to make sense, too, but most NTs I know seem a lot more comfortable dealing with crazy as long as it isn't taking over their life than I am, or anyone I know who is on the spectrum. Example: I cannot bring myself to "just humour" anyone. No matter how many times anyone explains how much easier it would be, I just can't do it. If someone makes a statement that is clearly wrong, the least confrontational thing I can manage is to ignore it.) So he was lucky to hold things together at all.

(If this doesn't clear up the confusion, please let me know.)

* Edited to add: On reflection, perhaps even those might give you some insight into how our minds work. There are several reasons. First, since taxes involve dealing with the government, with horrible penalties for any mistakes, there's a huge level of anxiety involved in making sure I don't mess up. (It doesn't matter that I'm fairly good at it, and less likely to mess up than most people. The potential consequences are still there, and so the anxiety is still there. I am literally, physically tense the entire time I'm doing them.) Second, the instructions are not written in plain English, but a stilted bureaucratic imitation of it - but they've also tried to dumb them down. The combination is a horrible one for me to try to read and understand. Dumbed down computer manuals make me tear my hair out in frustration; bureaucratic pseudo-language sets my teeth on edge, makes little sense much of the time, and when you put the two together... The third reason is tied to my focus on writing. When I was younger, I was more of a classic Aspie, with a focus on facts and figures. I was good at math; in fact, I still am. But as I began reading a lot of fiction, and even more as I began writing, my mind changed. I am still good at math - but now that I know the freedom of communicating in words, math feels like constraining my mind in a straitjacket. If you discover you're good at enduring pain, that doesn't mean you want to be in pain, or that the effort of enduring it won't wear you out more than when you're not in pain. Math is like that for me. I can do it, but forcing my mind into those constraints is painful and exhausting.

Sorry I took so long to reply to you. I don't think it is entirely a matter of genre. I did - and still do - read a lot of speculative fiction, and the way it forces the reader to figure out the world is certainly helpful. But I read books in nearly every genre - and I read books so old that the world they were written in was a far different one from ours. I think this was also vital, in giving me a sort of informal overview on the way manners and attitudes changed over time. Once you get back into Victorian times, you're really in a completely different world. I've even read (translated) fiction from medieval times (Curial and Guelfa, Tirant Lo Blanc, a few others). Good historical fiction (bodice rippers are not historical fiction at all, let alone good, if you were wondering; they're a genre formula unto themselves) can also be useful for this. In the beginning, good historical fiction may be even better, although learning to pick up the cues from a book written in that time, which is not trying to explain them to an 'outsider' is great mental exercise.

More important than the genre is the author. Although I have gained some insights even from lesser books (and there are forgotten authors who aren't all bad), the key point is that an author's job is to interpret things for the reader, and to put them in context so he can figure out what's happening. In general, a more skilled author will do a better job at this. Dickens, say, is one of the better Victorian choices, and if you find him wordy, just try his more obscure counterparts... But an author's reputation isn't a perfect guide to how useful they'll be for what I have in mind; some are good at telling excellent stories, but weak at helping the reader understand the characters. Some tell great stories but their characters are weak. (Isaac Asimov may have a well deserved reputation, but characterisation is not his strength.) Read Tom Clancy if you want to know more about military hardware, perhaps, but don't bother for much else. The most formulaic books in any genre will be poor choices. On the other hand, there are a handful of books in any genre which depart from the formula and have something to offer, if you can stand reading them. If you find yourself bored, and just going through the motions, move on. Unless you're drawn into the world of the story, you're not likely to get much out of it.

Thank you so much for the affirmation. I can be intense, overwhelming, and blunt too (just ask my mother or my ex ), so I can relate to that quite easily. I'm enjoying this discussion and learning a lot, so thanks for sticking with it.


Ha ha! No, not exactly. I think it's a function of time frame. My experience has been that, initially, high-IQ NT men enjoy having an intellectual equal, a sparring partner, an even match. But there's an emotional mismatch: such men tend to have weak egos and thin skin. The instant they feel threatened in some way, they turn into vicious, jealous teenage girls. Nothing could be more off-putting or alienating. Tellingly, they are all gone from my life - but not my Aspie. I can handle him, and he can handle me.

Sometimes I feel like a hybrid NT/AS. Or maybe "bilingual" is the word. Someone here described themselves as "HSP/BAP." Highly sensitive person, broad autistic phenotype. I think that would describe me.


What a great way to describe it. I consider myself a moral person. I also consider myself highly flexible. Culturally we live in confusing times, and sometimes flexibility is required - provided one retains a strong moral compass or "center." My sense is that he felt guilty for a while - but her subsequent behavior negated it.


Yes, most NTs would just multi-task their way through it. I've seen many "blended families" where everyone is civil and manages to get along. I know that will NOT happen in my situation, because of the ex-wife's hostility. For various reasons I won't get into, I've let go of his kids being a reminder of the previous relationship. They are very important to him, and he's told me so much about them, I would not simply "tolerate" them. They are his, and part of his life - period. Love for a child is different from adult romantic love, and it doesn't threaten me.


I think adults have a responsibility to put a child's well-being first - whether the child is yours or not. Sometimes it can be painful and difficult. But it has to be done anyway. A child will not be a child forever, and they must have that chance. They spend most of their time in school, asleep, with friends, etc. - I just don't think it's asking for too much.


I agree 100%. I don't think she was right to be so upset about your son coming along. If she was hoping for a romantic roll in the violet patch, well, you just have to revise those expectations, temporarily set aside your own wants and needs, and trust that you'll get another chance. I'd take the opportunity to observe the man I love in miniature, intuit his concerns, watch the two interact, think of him as a kid and how those experiences made him what he is. I'd let them both know I'm interested, and love them, and just enjoy coming along for the ride.


Oh yes. My ex-husband had a wicked stepmother, so I know all about that.


NO. It sounds like you made a huge effort to meet their needs. Was she making an equal effort to meet YOUR needs? I can sort of relate - my mother and my ex both have borderline features. Dependent, clingy, and and oblivious to MY needs. I was caught between the two of them for years. One complaining in each ear about the other, running me ragged doing this or that to meet their needs. Finally they pushed me over the edge and my brain just exploded. "I" basically ceased to exist. Like running a magnet over a hard drive. Took me a couple of years to fully recover. Taught us all that I am not superwoman, that I have limitations. Now I am very careful to assess my limits and my needs, and those of the other person. I think Aspies are actually much better at setting limits than NTs - and I think that's very healthy.

We're here. Sometimes just waiting for the right moment to "jump in the mix".

Welcome aboard from me

I now gather he did sleep with somebody since his ex, so that bit doesn't apply here, but I just meant that I think after a relationship has ended, when one first has sex with somebody new, there can be a strong feeling of crossing a line forever, consummating the divorce in a way, closing a door on the idea of going back. At least I think that's what can happen. I think I explained the "extreme" thing before, but let me know if I didn't.


Really it's a pleasure. I always notice that when I'm interacting a lot on WP like this about relationships in depth, I get more genial and personable in "real life."

And thank you for your posts too. I will read them carefully but my replies will be slow for a while. Here's why:

My estranged wife is due to collect the last of her things on Saturday. I'm pretty sure that's why I'm feeling spooked. It's bringing it all back. I finally got it through her head that I'm done with her last September (she was remarkably deaf to some things), and I haven't seen her since. I had a relationship since which is over now, and as it affects nothing I don't want her to know........I think I said how I hate making people jealous. She might ask, and I might have to choose between lying and giving her an awful shock. It's a horrible choice for an Aspie.

She probably will bring transport, the driver will probably be one of her family members, who have always been OK with me, but I've no idea if they understand why I declared it over, because although she moved out, she kept coming back every couple of months for a couple of days, no intention of divorcing or getting anybody else, still sent lovey-dovey cards, and in every way acted as if her moving out was by mutual agreement. I don't know what she told them.........could be a cultural thing going on, but that's usually a limited separation for strong occupational or family-needs reasons, as far as I know, and although her stated reasons for leaving were about occupation and family, they weren't strong and I'd made it clear at the time she announced her decision that I didn't endorse them.

Anyway, sorry to go so far off topic on your thread.......but I'm kind of short on advice, so if you - or anybody else with social intelligence - have any then please feel free to say it, if you don't mind such a deviation from the main subject. Just knowing I'm making sense would probably do a lot of good. Your thread, waitykatie, so your call. Next time I'll start my own thread but I wasn't planning to say much about my problem. And I must sleep soon......had insomnia for a couple of nights but not severe. Don't I ramble when I'm wound up?

Wanderer - wow, what a fantastic explanation. That all makes sense, although I'll have to read it a few times for it to really sink in. Over time, I was able to intuit much of it, but only in a fuzzy, inarticulable way. So explicit descriptions are extremely helpful. Also, my previous memories and experiences with him made it tough to comprehend, because I recall him as a ball of energy. A guy who took life by the throat and throttled till he got what he wanted. So watching my "fireball" meekly subjugate himself to some random lunatic who did not take care of him was very upsetting. Part of it was guilt, because I left the country a decade earlier, not understanding that he'd wanted me to stay. None of it would have happened, if only I'd understood. He suffered, and now these kids too, because of my stupidity. Nothing to be done now - except not be stupid again.

I've been thinking about your comments on reading and writing fiction possibly being useful for him. He's told me very little about his youth - but he did tell me a funny story of when he was 15 (at least, it's funny now). He liked to write sex stories for his friends - short, just two or three paragraphs. (Unfortunately, he got in BIG trouble when his mom found them in his dresser drawer!) Point being, maybe I should encourage him to write for fun again, when the time is right. I would also love to ask all kinds of questions about his childhood. Again, when the time is right, do you think that would be ok?

I think that putting blame on yourself isn't the case since you wasn't to know in all reality... he's forgiven you for it. Besides if you were truly "stupid", you'd not care how he feels now and not have researched and asked about him. You are doing the correct thing and getting the right help here. =]
Also which may apply to him is that he may not wish to talk of his childhood as it is common for some aspies to only remember the bad times.

Don't feel guilty - he made his own choices. It's not your job to make them for him.



I think you could just ask him this.

Im sorry to put this so bluntly but that is exactly what you are doing and exactly what you are getting yourself into. Its wonderful that you love him but you know that he has AS and that means precisely that he has 'his issues' and that more likely than not you will have to be a 'mommy/therapist' for some aspects of his life.

The question is, are you prepared and willing to do that or will you be like his ex and all others before her that started out as the greatest thing in the world and over time went downhill because they could not deal/handle 'his' issues.