Are more women than not willing to date Gastons

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I like people with a bit of grit, being overly nice all the time would bore me senseless and in my experience most 'nicey nicey' people I've met are a bit weird and needy once you get past the facade.

I know this was titled as a dating problem, but I would retitle the initial question:
Has society made narcissism attractive?

As for the whole nice guys manipulate debate - I would say, this is true. I am guilty of doing gentlemanly acts in return for positive feedback and a better relationship with female friends. I don't think this is entirely negative. I am a nice person in general - but I do suffer from social difficulties and if by going out-of-my-way helps builds friendships and possible relationships I will continue to do so. I don't expect sexual favours or demand them nor received any.

What particularly grates me, is how manipulative ladies are, both overtly and subtly and receive absolutely no criticism of it, as if they are obliged to do so.

I also have a particular morality conflict with those PUA guys, what they teach has a decent foundation (In terms of confidence and appearence) but the techniques and lines they use, to me, must amount to borderline non-consent, surely?

There's a happy medium. You can be nice and flirty. Lines are BS unless ironic for effect.

The label generally isn't slapped on them, it's usually guys calling themselves nice guys while lamenting women aren't rewarding their niceness with access to their bodies. Ex. girls only want jerks/gastons instead of me, (implied: those b*****) It definitely is erroneous.
If I were inventing terms that's not what I would have picked precisely because it leads to confusion. The quotation marks ("nice guys") or 'Nice Guys tm' are what I've seen used to denote the difference. It's a really specific kind of entitlement.

Even if someone is genuinely a truly non"" nice guy, just the sweetest most thoughtful person, that still doesn't mean anyone owes him sex, or is wrong for choosing a guy with other qualities, a woman isn't punishing him for not being alpha enough with her friendship. A truly nice guy would value the friendship of a woman he admired instead of lamenting being "friendzoned".



Let's unpack this. No one is saying guys who are nice to women are inherently manipulative. What I'm saying is guys who call themselves nice guys and do nice things for women, who think that behavior entitles them to sex/anything but civilness from those women is a wanna-be manipulator.
This is not all men, it's a specific sub-set of men often identified by their penchant for decrying the evilness of femaleness online when the women in their lives have failed to reward basic good behavior with sex/love/relationships

The fact that you don't expect anything makes you a good person and probably a pleasant person to hang around, not a niceguyTM.

"What particularly grates me, is how manipulative ladies are, both overtly and subtly and receive absolutely no criticism of it, as if they are obliged to do so. "
Ladies as a collective have no universally common traits except maybe a need for oxygen and being carbon based.
Are you kidding? Every sexual/relationship decision a woman makes is criticized. Because you can't please everyone but gosh darnit we're expected to try. When you reject men you're a b***h, when you don't you're a wh**e. When you're independent you're emasculating, when you aren't you're a gold digger.
Trust me, society has criticizing women covered.

PUA's are pretty gross. It's a shame there aren't many better teaching tools for dating type social skills for people who need it. Confidence is good, nearly everything else they talk about isn't.

Last edited by DogsWithoutHorses on 29 Apr 2012, 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

QFT

I am like gaston. I can probably shoot better then him also.
The only thing that I cannot do is blag like Gaston.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsRDfiVP4eM[/youtube]

I don't agree. Friendzoning is the specific act of one party, typically the woman, changing the rules in order to have her cake and eat it too. This way she gets to keep the legitimately nice guy on the hook, to be an emotional dumping ground, because she knows he is interested in her, while at the same time going out with guys she actually likes. The only equivalent I can really think of, and I'm sure it happens, is a "hot" guy who keeps stringing along a less attractive girl because she wants him bad enough to keep putting out.. even though he is ignoring her 80% of the time.

Friendzoneing is a completely different animal than mutually choosing to "just be friends". I've had both things happen to me, and I know there is a difference. Friendzoneing always contains and undercurrent of flirtation designed to keep the other parties attention from wavering.

Friendzoning is precisely that. Women and men can be friends. A girl is perfectly capable of liking you, but not in that way. Don't be bitter. Maybe it's a case of Aspie males not having experience of actually friendzoning a girl?

You mean a woman might like you enough to be comfortable and express herself, even if she has a flirty personality(what a wh**e, she might also trust you enough to confide in you!! That horrible b****. All that hard, back breaking friendship work she used her physical might to force a poor man into doing and not so much as a furtive hj for his trouble.
These horrible women must be stopped immediately!

You clearly still don't understand. As I tried to explain to other posters months ago, if I wasn't interested in them in a potentially romantic way, I wouldn't have talked to them in the first place. If we both decide to be friends, well, thems the breaks. If SHE decides to be friends, and fails to tell me, EG continuing to let me think we are "More than friends" then that is 'Friendzoning'. It also tends to entail a sudden upsurge in flirtation whenever you begin to stray and start looking at other women, or lord help you, are around another woman with your so called "Friend' who then all of a sudden can't keep her hands off you.

Please don't put words in my mouth either. I've never called a woman a b***h or a whore because they didn't want to go out with me.

For every passive-Agressive "nice guy" there's ten genuine nice guys. The problem with the genuine nice guys is that they need to grow up and see that a 25 year old woman has a more mature taste than a 16 year old girl.



nobody on this board has claimed to be entitled to anything. However, one does not go on dates to meet new friends; almost everyone has enough semi-peripheral friends. Furthermore, a lot of girls when they say "let's be friends" just leads a guy on to boost their ego.



Reality shows and MTV have



This is an internet stereotype very few people encounter in real life. They've even stopped using the term and are now ranting about how women only want looks instead.

They're gathered here:

http://www.love-shy.com/lsbb/



Most "nice guys" expect nothing in return; they actually think "let's just be friends" means that they really are friends and accept this as the next best thing.



All humans have more in common than you think.




These so-called career women are single for other reasons than their career; the crap about men being intimidated by career women is just a self-reinforcing delusion. This is also why most female lawyers, doctors or engineers are happily married.

Furthermore, a woman who chooses to be stay-at-home-mom until her kids start high school while her husband works ten hours overtime each week in a job he hates IS a gold digger. The same goes for childless women who work part-time to get more time for her hobbies, while her husband works his ass off to pay for the mortgage and the BMW. This (thankfully) describes less than 10% of all women.

A woman who works full-time as a nurse, a teacher, a police officer, an economist or whatever IS NOT a gold digger. The same goes for a woman who's on a maternity leave or is out of work to finish her college degree.


Let's turn the tables: If a single man doesn't f...around at least once a week, he's a loser; if he does, he's a womanizer. If a man doesn't have visible abs, e's out of shape, if he works out enough to have them, he's a fanatic. If he makes less than 100,000 dollars a year he's a deadbeat, if he works hard enough to earn that much, he's a coldfish who doesn't spend enough time with her. Lastly, if a woman lies on her back in bed and does NOTHING, any men who cant't give her the orgasm of a lifetime is a bad lover. For every woman that goes through what you just mentioned, there's a man who goes through this.




Thankfully, there are. This place is full of advice for both men and women:

http://incel.myonlineplace.org/forum/

Typically, trust has nothing to do with it. The guy's just used used to validate her somehow when her current love interest won't.

If it is indeed true that most women choose "Gastons" over actual nice men, then I don't see anything wrong with complaining about it. It makes sense to whine a bit when kind people get screwed and jerks get rewarded. There's a difference between feeling overly entitled and being understandably upset at the unfairness of life.

You're 16. Wait ten years and see where the cool guys who get all the best girls today end up. Most that I can think of today are out of shape, employed in crappy jobs, have no education and still live at home... and the best part is that most attractive girls won't give them a second look.

in the US at least, they are the ones who are living on their own, driving the biggest cars on their 45 minute commute, working well paying low effort jobs and have a wife and 2.5 kids in the suburbs. It's those of us who never had any success at anything in Highschool are doing all the things you said. Success breeds success. There is no cosmic karma waiting around the corner to right wrongs.

I didn't say that. However, the Pinto cruising guy with baggy jeans who parties hard every weekend, does cocaine and talks like he's from the ghetto (even though he's from an upper middle class suburb) won't achieve much, even though many girls love them in high school.

Two guys who live near me are a perfect example of this. Both still live at home, both have low-paying jobs, both dropped out of high school and instead of saving their money, they blow it all away at night clubs and parties. They were "extremely cool" ten years ago.

Edit: one of them is still cruisin' in his 20 year old Civic.