the jerk double standard

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billiscool and SoftwareEngineer

What the f**k is wrong with you two? Have you two dropped to much acid? You two sound like Beavis and Butthead. f**k Almighty!

I can't even believe I'm reading this BS!. This whole discussion has degraded into some kind of jerky circle jerk. Hale_Bopp is right, neither of you sound very bright.

Can you two think with your brains instead of your dicks?

I'm f*****g pissed now. Now I know what women are talking about with Nice Guys tm. WTF was I thinking when I was 18-19? You guys are users.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 18 May 2014, 1:38 am, edited 4 times in total.

Shoot, I'm married. I found the right woman I love and I didn't need to play this whole stupid nice guy, Pick up artistry crapshoot. I concentrated on more important stuff, we became friends and it took off from there. I actually met her servicing her computer. So, there is your example right there.

I think you're right to a point. I am not a nice person. I am a good person, but I wouldn't call myself nice. People piss me off, and I usually say what I think. I yelled "You stupid w*ker" at an intersection when someone clearly wasn't driving properly or considering other drivers.

I don't agree with the part I bolded though. I think that is completely wrong. I have a huge amount of respect, love and caring for others - If I think they deserve it. I have less empathy for people than I have for plants and animals, but it doesn't mean we have a limited capacity to feel it.

Even when I was a kid, I would burn inside with fury, anger, rage and sadness when I read stories in magazines of child abuse, animal abuse. Anyone who has been able to feel that strongly, certainly doesn't have a limited capacity to care.

Empathy isn't the same as sympathy. I'm pretty sure empathy is more about knowing the correct thing to say/do based on subtle social cues which may or not involve feeling sympathy.

So... is this another I-Must-Treat-People-Like-Garbage-Because-I-Am-So-Shallow-That-My-Only-Goal-In-Life-Is-To-Get-Laid thread?

Because it certainly looks, smells, feels, tastes and sounds like all the previous I-Must-Treat-People-Like-Garbage-Because-I-Am-So-Shallow-That-My-Only-Goal-In-Life-Is-To-Get-Laid threads on WP.

Or am I missing something?

If I'd think that I'd need to be the female version of a 'jerk' to ever get a date I'd rather just not. But it's a shame how this PUA logic -be a complete douchebag and they get all wet down there- is so full of this victim role, and perhaps partially also a false sense of entitlement.

These tragic heroes, having been abandoned in all their niceness, having had so much to offer to the ladies, only to be ignored for the alpha PUA jerk dudebro....

I think that thinking in this way is harming yourself. And even worse, visiting all these hateful sites or reading all these hateful opinions *won't* help you in any way! Seriously, it'll only make you more bitter and spiteful. It won't make you progress in any way of life, it'l just alter your sense of reality and because of this new sense of reality you will scare people away, thereby reinforcing these 'views'.

uhh yeah, I guess you didn't catch the part where I mentioned the moderate "assertve-guy" that no one else ever talks about in these threads, probably due to extreme b/w thinking on the subject(i.e. there's only a passive-guy or aggressive-guy)

I still am able to feel large amounts of sympathy.

Anyone can be a jerk regardless of their social standing, financial status, or social clique they may be in.

Ive mentioned the assertive guy. I've also mentioned that the Jerk and the Nice Guy are wrapped up in the same dramatic/moral universe, and many - I'd guess most - men live outside of that.



Are some particularly powerful people 'loved' for their power? Yes. Does it follow that everyone has to have some sort of power in order to be loved? Not in the slightest.

If you have power, however come by, and you give it up to go off and do great humanitarian things, you can make a positive charactersitic of it. If you don't have power, and spend a lot of your time going on and on about how powerless you are, but that's ok because only the 'good guys' are powerless - that's not a positive characteristic. That's narcissism and martyrdom.

I have been and am loved. And whyever that is, it's not for my power. Lowly jobs or plain unemployed, overweight, average looking, can't drive let alone own a car. I'm a regular catch, right? I would hope I am pleasant. That's for others to decide on. I do try to not be unpleasant.

Again - you, Klowglas, you are the one obssessed with power. It is of varying importance to most people, quite depending on what you mean by 'power', and depending on the individual, but it doesn't figure large in the way you suppose. It is you who feels powerless, and supposes that, if you had power, you could get a woman. Because presumably, that's all you want. A woman. Because that's the option you give to aspie women that aspie men don't have - they can 'use' sex to get a man. Doesn't matter which one, or that he's someone who just wants a sentient human female into which to stick his penis - the only criteria the aspie woman can be sure he'll meet - which is hardly the basis for a blossoming, loving relatonship. But, at least she won't be alone, eh? She gets to be around a man who wants to have sex with her, and thinks it worthwhile keeping her around so he can do so when the mood takes him. Good Lord - do you understand how dismal that is? There's no 'power' or 'luck' there. A man. A woman. As if that's all that mattered.

Unfortunately for you, people can be - and are - loved for being pleasant individuals. The essentially powerless are loved all the time. Pleasant, essentially powerless people (because everyone has some form of power, though they may best be able to exercise it in groups) get into relationships and are loved and love other pleasant, essentially powerless people. Your 'theory' is utterly refuted by lived experience, both past and present. If you weren't so hung up on it, you'd see that.

And really, is 'nice' all you have? How about interesting? Funny? Good company? Bravery? Integrity? Taking an interest in others? Not wallowing in self pity? All worthy, admirable, desirable characteristics, be they in men or women.

In another Nice Guy thread, I flipped the coin and mentioned what I have seen in jerk girls. Here is one paragraph to make it short.

Yeah, that type sounds very appealing doesn't it. BTW Please don't mind the typo which is kinda obvious to me and I just noticed it now: "their" vs "they're"

As for this "women only want jerks" and "nice guys finish last" arguments: The older I get, the more tired I get of this argument.

Jerks managed to attract some types without caring too much what others think. I will agree with that. Some good guys who are trying to achieve something with their life without focusing too much on women also manage to get ladies from what I have noticed. People who appear to be happy, healthy and fit also get some ladies. I also see PUA's or Sociopaths and Narcissists target on the insecurity of someone who may be going through a vulnerable moment and therefore get some partners while others see right through them.

It seems pretty clear that some of the guys that post this Nice guy stuff have clearly put women on their pedestals. Otherwise, you wouldn't have taken a person crawling back to you a third time.

Without doubt. But that doesn't really translate to what most NT would class as 'nice'.
This is true. But it is caring on our own terms. We care about other people when things happen to them that either violate our moral construction of the world, or affect them in a way that, were we subject to the same treatment, we would feel great indignation or pain. Fine. But the key word is genuinely caring about someone else - which means caring about the things that matter to them on their own terms. I find it really hard to sympathise with people's issues unless it is, or could be or world be, actually an issue for me at the outset. Don't misunderstand me - it is undoubtedly a part of what NTs would consider being Nice, but it really isn't the whole deal, it's only a part of the social contract that is implicitly signed in friendships and relationships - and a clause only really enacted in extremis for most NTs.

The nice guy stereotype to my mind simply isn't applicable to most aspies (except in their mind).

Because they still have some measure of power which many are able to sell. I didn't say all aspies are deprived of power, but many of them, especially the males are. the aspie couple that I know for instance bonded over their common obsessision, but for a lot aspies who aren't that lucky, whom already have so much difficuly socializing, they're at an enormous disadvantage compared to NT's, and women aspies actually have the option of wooing NT's because sex is an enormous pull.

Society still favours you for being a shy introverted girl, us aspie males have no such advantage, we're utterly despised because it appears as inferior, whereas the woman who has these traits is still valued because of her reproductive qualities.

Not being an efficient socialite in this world is a tremendous disadvantage, if a male isn't good with conversation, isn't good at generating money, then he's pretty much disposable because his reproductive qualities aren't of any value.

Society says "shut up and die" in so many ways that aren't frank.

What you just described is most of the world, yes mot guys just want to get laid, but it's also true that most women just want security -- few if anybody really cares about what really mattered most, and hence these sort of threads, the only thing many aspie males can sell is their niceness, but it's just not any good. You can be nice is self-pity, you can be nice and not funny, you can still be nice and a coward, but you just can't be loved/desired, not unless it has some form of power to accompany it.

I'm not obsessed with power, I'm obsessed for the reason why some people end up in my position, if nobody can figure out why I'm here, then that means somebody else is going to fill my shoes eventually. If humans continue to love others based on what they can do for them, and not because they are good human beings, then it's going to be your children/grand-children that will fill my shoes, because many of them wont be as strong or as powerful as others.

I question how powerless you, or most of these couples on this website are but it is something that everyone is going to have to face at some point, because it's something that's going away as we age, a womans beauty is going to fade, that's when her power fades, men lose physical strength, and both of these lose their sharpness.

Many of us 'nice guy' aspies have gone our entire lives without any female friendship, and we're expected to court them with the same sort of guile and confidence of an NT at the top of his game? That's just not going to happen. Many of us can't approach women through social prowess. Our condition makes it hard to get a job, so many of us can't woo them through security, this then leave us with the most base part that makes our being, something that just isn't desired.

Hell, maybe some of you couples just got lucky, that's possible but it's just not something most people can count on.

The point that women date jerks for their other qualities (despite them being jerks, not because of it) is interesting. I'm not in a position to say how true it is, but I'd hope it is, at least to some extent.

It resonated with me, because I've heard a similar answer given for a common workplace question: "why do so many jerks get promoted to be managers?" The answer was, essentially, that so few people have the qualities necessary to be a good manager that the executives who appoint them overlook their jerkish tendencies if they meet the other criteria. They would very happily appoint someone who is qualified and not a jerk, but there are simply very few such candidates.

I think this is largely true, except that the decisions are based on perception, not on reality. So there are people who are not jerks and would make good managers, given the chance, but they don't come across as management material. Same thing in relationships. Another way to put it is: some people are much better at doing the job than at getting the job. (I count myself among those.)