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Should Alex Ban Sexist Opinions from L&D?
Yes 39%  39%  [ 37 ]
No 45%  45%  [ 43 ]
Undecided 17%  17%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 96

Jono
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23 Jun 2014, 9:01 pm

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
aspiemike wrote:
SoftwareEngineer and KraftieKortie:
I wanted to bring up the Brianruns topic here. I chose not to because of it being in another thread.


I'm appalled a guy was savagely bullied, directly and indirectly, for attempting to function as part of the normal world. And, I'm appalled such bullying of an individual attempting normal techniques autistics are advised to use was tolerated. Isn't Alex Plank a supposed campaigner against bullying of autistics? Doesn't Alex Plank professionally present on the importance and value of autistics learning to use non-verbal cues to function better in the larger world?

POST NOTE:

Good grief!! !! ! Alex Plank recommends this book: "Asperger Love: Searching for Romance When You're Not Wired to Connect"
http://www.wrongplanet.net/article443.html

Here's the kicker: "Here's an excerpt from Pulitzer Prize winning NY Times reporter Amy Harmon's new ebook, "Asperger Love" that profiles Wrong Planet's "Autism Talk TV" co-hosts Jack Robison and Kirsten Lindsmith."

Just read the blurb, here on Wrong Planet. In part, "To Jack, who was 19 and has a form of autism sometimes called Asperger syndrome, her mind was uncannily like his. She was also, he thought, beautiful. So far, they had only cuddled; Jack had hopes for something more. Yet when she smiled at him the next morning, her lips seeking his, he turned away. ?I don?t really like kissing,? he said. Kirsten drew back. If he knew she was disappointed, he showed no sign."

I bought this book and read it months ago after Alex sent out an email blast recommending and promoting it. The young man is the son of John Elder Robison, the noted autistic author!! !! !! ! I just got it out and remembered Alex Plank hawked this book.

Think about it - A young man was savagely punished in this forum for doing what is described in a book promoted by Alex Plank which was written by a Pulitzer Prize winner about the Wrong Planet's "Autism Talk TV" co-hosts Jack Robison and Kirsten Lindsmith.

And, that kind of punishment which was dealt out in this thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt261300.html is tolerated. Again, I am appalled.


I don't think that he did anything wrong, he made an honest mistake. However, I also think that he followed some bad advice regarding not asking first if unsure.



kraftiekortie
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23 Jun 2014, 9:05 pm

The woman asked Brian, in essence, "Do you do that to all your friends?" Then the woman stated, in essence, that what occurred wasn't welcome. It was communication between friends. I sense that it was "over" once the woman communicated what she wanted to communicate. I don't sense that she wanted to lose the friendship of Brian.

Friendships are like that. Not everything is honky-dory all the time. Friendships endure much worse things than what occurred here.



ReticentJaeger
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23 Jun 2014, 9:06 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Wrong. Those are all sexist.

tarantella64 wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
"women only want money! =sexist

"men only want sex!" =not sexist


^ perfect summation


Not at all. See above: those are both sexist.


He knows. It was sarcasm. He was stating what society in general thinks.



Last edited by ReticentJaeger on 23 Jun 2014, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aspiemike
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23 Jun 2014, 9:08 pm

:D

I cant believe the Salt and Vinegar chips are still being passed in this thread.

*chows on some Sweet Chili Heat Doritos*

What I am appalled in in these forums is not just the bullying, and I made reference to it in a previous thread and I know I got ignored there too. I notice that threads that are meant to be positive usually go ignored or don't receive as much attention. Yet a thread that has negativity in it brings nothing but attention (ie, gender or flame wars for example). Tells me that a lot of people are miserable. I refrain from getting involved a lot and usually skip a lot of threads that go beyond 6 pages. I do my best to help those who need help and I simply do it without thinking too much about it. These are the people I come here for: The ones that genuinely ask for help.


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FireyInspiration
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23 Jun 2014, 9:18 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The woman asked Brian, in essence, "Do you do that to all your friends?" Then the woman stated, in essence, that what occurred wasn't welcome. It was communication between friends. I sense that it was "over" once the woman communicated what she wanted to communicate. I don't sense that she wanted to lose the friendship of Brian.

Friendships are like that. Not everything is honky-dory all the time. Friendships endure much worse things than what occurred here.


Bingo. Brian apologized, and it seems like the friendship was able to move on. Good for them



Dox47
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23 Jun 2014, 9:22 pm

aspiemike wrote:
I notice that threads that are meant to be positive usually go ignored or don't receive as much attention. Yet a thread that has negativity in it brings nothing but attention (ie, gender or flame wars for example).


I've noticed that as well, and have also been attacked for posting positive threads by people saying that describing good dating experiences amounted to "flaunting" my success, which I've seen happen with others. I can sort of understand the underlying pattern, which is that drama is "interesting" and success less so, as there's not all that much to say when someone isn't asking for feedback or advice and isn't putting a controversial opinion forward that can be rebutted, but it's still disheartening.

I do have one suggestion though; immediately moving any gender politics threads to PPR, and splitting off threads that veer in that direction, with all the off-topic arguments being put in their own PPR thread. That way the argumentative threads would go where they're supposed to be anyway, the designated debate forum, and L&D could be free to focus on positive feedback and advice rather than the rancorous flame-fests that currently characterize the forum.


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NobodyKnows
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23 Jun 2014, 9:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Further, a lot of what is being held up as "sexism" lacks only an 'I think/feel/believe' or a 'most' to make it acceptable, and I don't think we should be banning people over what amounts to omission of wiggle words.


That's a very good point. Sometimes the difinitive wording is clearer. I'd be a lot more sympathetic to feminists leaving off cumbersome qualifiers if I knew that I wouldn't be ripped on for doing the same.



tarantella64
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23 Jun 2014, 9:54 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Further, a lot of what is being held up as "sexism" lacks only an 'I think/feel/believe' or a 'most' to make it acceptable, and I don't think we should be banning people over what amounts to omission of wiggle words.


That's a very good point. Sometimes the difinitive wording is clearer. I'd be a lot more sympathetic to feminists leaving off cumbersome qualifiers if I knew that I wouldn't be ripped on for doing the same.


Why is there all this talk about banning people?

In most fora, if a post is offensive or crosses a policy line, the post is deleted and the user is notified. Only if this sort of thing is chronic is the person banned from the forum, and the reason for it's that s/he's a PITA for the mods to chase.

The point of moderating for sexism is to keep the site welcoming to women, as well as men, with autism, though from what I've been hearing modding for sexism would also make the site friendlier to many men. That's all.



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23 Jun 2014, 9:59 pm

ReticentJaeger wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Wrong. Those are all sexist.

tarantella64 wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
"women only want money! =sexist

"men only want sex!" =not sexist


^ perfect summation


Not at all. See above: those are both sexist.


He knows. It was sarcasm. He was stating what society in general thinks.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=barWV7RWkq0[/youtube]


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Dox47
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23 Jun 2014, 10:46 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Why is there all this talk about banning people?


Aside from the posts in this thread, I can think of a few:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6069929.html#6069929

Quote:
1st Give a verbal warning

2nd. Give a month suspension

3rd. Then permanently band them.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6070255.html#6070255

Quote:
Well, that really is a very serious problem. But some of the work is already being done here: write up a policy. "These sorts of statements [example, example, example] are sexist because reasons [supported by link, link, link for further self-education, should you be interested]. Your personal belief that this is 'not sexist, just true' will not counteract the policy, and if you post along these lines you'll be warned and eventually banned."


Oh hey, that was you!

I could find more, three strikes plans and such have been pretty front and center during this recent discussion of sexism.

Edited to fix link.


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Last edited by Dox47 on 24 Jun 2014, 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

SoftwareEngineer
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24 Jun 2014, 12:49 am

Well, we know where Alex and the moderators stand on what was done to Brian.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6123977.html#6123977



tarantella64
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24 Jun 2014, 1:10 am

Dox47 wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Why is there all this talk about banning people?


Aside from the posts in this thread, I can think of a few:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6069929.html#6069929

Quote:
1st Give a verbal warning

2nd. Give a month suspension

3rd. Then permanently band them.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums-posti ... 70255.html

Quote:
Well, that really is a very serious problem. But some of the work is already being done here: write up a policy. "These sorts of statements [example, example, example] are sexist because reasons [supported by link, link, link for further self-education, should you be interested]. Your personal belief that this is 'not sexist, just true' will not counteract the policy, and if you post along these lines you'll be warned and eventually banned."


Oh hey, that was you!

I could find more, three strikes plans and such have been pretty front and center during this recent discussion of sexism.


That was me! I just think that "three strikes" and the immediate leap to zomg-banned is harsh and probably unnecessary. I mean most of the point here is that people come in talking this way because they think it's normal, not because they're trying to be horrible to women. For the most part. You warn, you delete, you say, "look, this is sexist, this isn't, please cut it out now." If someone just won't, I can see banning -- but again, that's mostly because someone like that's a complete pain for volunteer mods.



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24 Jun 2014, 1:12 am

The board rules already prohibit "sexist language", so I'm not sure what this thread is even about. If you're talking about a change to how that's defined then you need to be more specific. Much, much more specific.

In my view, sexism is far from the biggest issue in this sub-forum. People derailing threads and starting "arguments" (to put it nicely) where the OP clearly isn't looking for one is a far bigger problem.

At the end of the day, though, this thread will make no difference whatsoever. Alex probably won't even read it, let alone do anything about it.


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24 Jun 2014, 1:40 am

^

Yeah, parsing what the ToS really means in a longtime hobby of mine, and I'll let you in on a little secret; it's almost entirely at the discretion of the moderators, which means whatever the current consensus with them is. The current trouble is that Alex has decided that he'd like a light touch with sexism, with an emphasis on community pressure rather than punitive moderation for anything that's not unambiguous and blatant, and some people object to that. Now personally, I'd like to see a similar approach applied to the site as a whole, as I believe that the remedy for negative speech is more speech, not censorship, but I seem to be in the minority here in that regard.

Specificity is a real problem too, I've tried in vain for pages at a time to get examples of this "pervasive sexism" out of the rule change proponents, to no avail, despite their demands that anyone making any claim whatsoever provide detailed citations, which sort of reinforces my own feeling that this is more about dictating "acceptable" opinions and suppressing "unacceptable" ones than it is about creating a safe space or such.


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24 Jun 2014, 1:48 am

Dox47 wrote:
^

Yeah, parsing what the ToS really means in a longtime hobby of mine, and I'll let you in on a little secret; it's almost entirely at the discretion of the moderators, which means whatever the current consensus with them is. The current trouble is that Alex has decided that he'd like a light touch with sexism, with an emphasis on community pressure rather than punitive moderation for anything that's not unambiguous and blatant, and some people object to that. Now personally, I'd like to see a similar approach applied to the site as a whole, as I believe that the remedy for negative speech is more speech, not censorship, but I seem to be in the minority here in that regard.

Specificity is a real problem too, I've tried in vain for pages at a time to get examples of this "pervasive sexism" out of the rule change proponents, to no avail, despite their demands that anyone making any claim whatsoever provide detailed citations, which sort of reinforces my own feeling that this is more about dictating "acceptable" opinions and suppressing "unacceptable" ones than it is about creating a safe space or such.


it's not our job to provide examples to you, if you're not willing to aknowledge the obvious or if you personally haven't seen any sexist comments yourself, either way. i spent the time to gather and send alex examples when he asked for them because i know he doesn't spend a lot of time here to see it for himself, like you do.



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24 Jun 2014, 1:51 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Well, we know where Alex and the moderators stand on what was done to Brian.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6123977.html#6123977


Alex might drop in once or twice a year, it's highly unlikely that he knows or cares. However, I can tell you from experience that the mods really don't like it when you argue with them in the alert thread, they all get auto-PMed every time someone posts there, and it makes them cranky and predisposed against you when you keep paging them to argue a point in there. Also, if you're going to make that kind of accusation, you really need to go into it point by point and walk them through the posts, highlighting the bits that you think show the pattern that you're trying to prove, and that's better done through PM than out in the open, for a variety of reasons. If you just throw it in the alert thread, someone's going to glance at it, and unless a violation jumps of the page at them, they're going to opt to not get involved. I've managed to pursue some fairly complicated complaints against people who don't break the rules per se unless you look at their posts over a long period and see the pattern of provocation and retaliation, and though it can be done. it's not easy.


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