Cool song about getting friendzoned

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I'm always skeptical of that. I heard somewhere (will have to find a source later) some women can decide within just seconds of meeting a man if she will ever be sleeping with him or not and, to be honest, I find I'm capable of doing the exact same thing as a male.

Granted, the vast majority of females my age I do meet the answer is a quick and instant 'yes', but for some it's a no.

Imho the friendzone belief is flawed from the beginning because I sincerely believe most people do decide quiet quickly their opinions of other people and 'how far' another person would get with them.

Besides, I'd prefer a female attracted to me from the get-go than one that's undecided about me and still figuring things out.

This leaves you on edge, and the answer is usually they aren't attracted to you anyway.

In short: Seek those it's mutual with from the get-go.

This mentality as described in regards to being sexually attracted to other people is completely alien to me.

When I first meet a guy, I certainly have a first impression of whether I find him physically attractive or not--but this has very little bearing on whether I would consider having sex with him or not. I can't know something like that until I begin to actually know the person, because until I know something about him other than how he looks I have no idea if he is the sort of guy I would be romantically and sexually compatible with; for me to have compatibility with guys in those areas I need to have impressions of how trustworthy they are, how much I respect them as a person, how much I admire personal qualities they have like kindness and intelligence (both of which qualities greatly increase a guy's attractiveness for me but you can't really know about a person on first encountering them). I think this is why I've never been interested in casual sex/"hook-ups": a hook-up is based almost solely on physical attraction because the other person's appearance is all you have to go on if you know little else about them. Basically, to be willing to have sex with a guy I need to BOTH trust him AND desire him, and I can't do that until I know him.

I may be initially physically attracted to a guy upon meeting him, but I've met lots of guys before who I thought were cute at first but then as I got to know them I found out they were not nice people at all and it cancelled what physical attraction I felt for them. That sexual desire just completely dissipates if I know the guy is a turd, no matter how pretty he is. That is just how it works for me, so the way you describe being able to sort people immediately upon meeting them into yes or no categories in regards to whether you would ever consider sleeping with them is utterly foreign to me.

I change my mind about that with guys. It has to do with how a guy treats me. A guy that initially holds no attraction or appeal for me can influence me by how he behaves. So can I guy that on the surface seems totally hot: if he acts like an entitled creep or like his mode is based on the p.u.a. handbook I will be completely turned off.

So it's not set, at least not for me. While I realize I am singularly freaky I doubt that I am the only woman on earth who would say ^that^.

And Outrider, you basically admit in your post right there that when you meet women your own age your "lizard brain" is going "I'd hit that. I'd hit that. I'd hit that." Wouldn't surprise me if that's true of many men--it's certainly the stereotype behind the p.u.a. and friendzone and alpha male/beta male etc. etc. modalities.

So we're still both saying men and women view heterosexual relationships differently. Women can meet guys and think about how fun they are to hang out with and not be obsessing on sleeping with them or moving the relationship to the dating level.

It's proven by anecdotal evidence like SweetLeaf's story on the previous page, too: she had a boyfriend, met a guy, the guy was nice for her to have as a friend, but as soon as there was opportunity the guy tried to move out of the friendzone and get into a relationship with her. And somehow that makes her mean because she "led the guy on" by not telling him at the outset that she was in a relationship and not looking for another. She didn't read his vibes but being a friend without the potential was not a concept the poor guy could cope with.

So I still say: it looks to me like most women are better at these poor friendzoned men at coping with non- relationships. Maybe there are men who handle platonic relationships well. But it looks to me like they are the minority.

I relate very easily to what you say. And I think it's true what you say about how the concept of platonic friendships with women just never seems to occur to some guys. This makes me feel kind of sad because of all the rewarding platonic exchanges I have had with male friends and acquaintances, and that these guys are missing out on those kinds of ways of connecting with like 51% of the population because all they can think about when they are around us is whether they would bang us or not instead of just being able to enjoy our company as people.

"A guy that initially holds no attraction or appeal for me can influence me by how he behaves. So can I guy that on the surface seems totally hot: if he acts like an entitled creep or like his mode is based on the p.u.a. handbook I will be completely turned off."

Well this only applies to me regarding females I was initially attracted to physically but get drawn away by their personality.

I can only change my mind and become un-attracted to someone - I can't become attracted to someone I wasn't in the beginning.

"So we're still both saying men and women view heterosexual relationships differently. Women can meet guys and think about how fun they are to hang out with and not be obsessing on sleeping with them or moving the relationship to the dating level."

The opposite can also be said. Males can't meet a woman wanting a relationship or the idea of dating to get to know one another from the get-go. Not everyone likes to just hang out with other people, some of us have goals in mind and are more forward than that. Even when meeting other males I don't just think about 'just having fun', I want to think about if I could actually have a friendship with this guy (there's a difference between hanging out with someone and genuine friendship!). Some of us I guess don't want to just be spontaneous and natural and see where things go, we want to think about where things are going with another person quite early. It's just preference in methods of getting to know others.

See, this is the difference I notice between the genders in my own experiences.

Like I said all the males I know around my age will overthink/overread every action a female gives us for possible hints she is attracted to us. If we see no signs and she only wants to be friends, well then we stop being vigilent and accept it as a friendship. Hooray!

While the females I've spent my time around would NEVER EVER even DARE think of a possibility, EVER, AT ALL, ZERO, nil, none, that a male approaching them could EVER, even slightly, be attracted to them or have other intentions in mind beyond friendship. And are surprised, nay, SHOCKED, the male who was almost outright telling her he was attracted to her had even slightly romantic intentions in mind.

Like I said I went on two dates with a lesbian girl and it took her until the second date to figure it out. I had to actually call it a date until she picked-it-up. I said 'It's just...when two people...go out together, on a DATE, or a HANGOUT, the one who asks is usually the one who pays!!' (when we were debating over paying, because she was fine paying for herself even if I was the one who asked). Before that, she at no point questioned a random classmate coming out of nowhere, starting to talk to her all the time, getting a bit touchy with her (without being inappropriate), asking her if she would like to go to coffee, etc. had an interest in her. Again, fair enough Aspergers runs in her family and she thinks she is an undiagnosed aspie, but still...maybe like Sweetleaf's situation I came across as too friendly, but I don't think so.

Like I said I was touchy, I was slightly flirty, so much to the point our teacher joked about it. In class she'd give me feedback on my writing and I'd just sit there, staring at her, smiling softly, chuckling at every reaction she had to my writing. I'd frequently show-off to her, joke around to her, etc.

"It's proven by anecdotal evidence like SweetLeaf's story on the previous page, too: she had a boyfriend, met a guy, the guy was nice for her to have as a friend, but as soon as there was opportunity the guy tried to move out of the friendzone and get into a relationship with her. And somehow that makes her mean because she "led the guy on" by not telling him at the outset that she was in a relationship and not looking for another. She didn't read his vibes but being a friend without the potential was not a concept the poor guy could cope with."

It was his own fault he didn't approach things forwardly from the get-go. The thing about the 'friendzone' is usually males that end up in it tried befriending a woman first and then become upset she only saw him as a friend.

It's not that males are incapable of accepting and enjoying friendships with women, it's that that is NOT what they wanted with that particular woman.

But, he SHOULD have expressed that. Because he didn't, he deserves no sympathy and should just leave Sweetleaf alone and hopefully he did.

"So I still say: it looks to me like most women are better at these poor friendzoned men at coping with non- relationships. Maybe there are men who handle platonic relationships well. But it looks to me like they are the minority."

No, it's not that we don't handle them well. It's that when it comes to approaching a female with romantic or sexual intentions, some go about it the wrong way. Those are two different things.

I'm saying we could be friends with women fine, but if there's one particular woman we are attracted to, some males may approach them the wrong way.

I suggest to these men to approach a woman showing your intentions from the get-go, and if you are rejected, move on.

When there is ONE SIDED sexual interest that is not reciprocated, that is sexual tension by my definition. What is a delusion is when you presume that being friends with them/nice to them will compel them to change their mind and start to reciprocate those feelings.

And other times, even when there is clearly no mutual interest, if they guy shows signs of sexual desperation that can still make her feel uncomfortable.

But do not assume that people are always consciously aware of these things.

Are you telling me that you will date/sleep with ANY man who treats you the way you wish to be treated???

Because if that's the case you sound kinda desperate. For most women that I have met and talked to, they are often attracted to intrinsic personality traits which are often based on natural born abilities and not just behaviour.

As it turns out, social ability has a genetic basis and is not distributed equally as we all know. Some women are really turned off by the social clumsiness and lack of empathy/intuition that autistic men display. They want men who can sense what they want and how they feel...And say the right words at the right times. Some of us aspies just cannot offer that to them and so those gals aren't for us.

I try not to make my friends uncomfortable if I can help it. Good friends accommodate each other's quirks however I'm not goign to roll over to accomdate every insecurity if it is one way and needy. So within reason.

However if I have an unrequited interest is up to me to get over it, and move on. Or just move on from the friendship.

The point is the term "friend zoned" has more subtext. It not just a word to describe unrequited interest. The concept behind what it is really intended to mean is flawed.

Guess what--NT guys expect the similar things from us aspie women (social fluidity, the right kind of effusive emotional support, executive functioning like being able to plan parties and get togethers, nurturing, etc) that we can't deliver and we get shunned by NT guys for it too, just like you aspie guys get from NT women. Did you really not notice that? Being autistic is no easier when you're a woman than it is when you're a man.

No. Holy $hit what an offensive way to interpret my post. There are a thousands shades of meaning between "influence" and "seduce."

Maybe if I were single, dating, in the game and/or looking for a relationship or a hook-up I would be "desperate" according to your definition.

I am an AspieWoman, I am socially awkward in the extreme, I am introverted to the point of being afraid of people and at times so anxious as to approach paranoia about human interaction. So it's possible that if I were alone, I'd be desperate to find someone.

I'm long past that point in my life journey, though. I was approached at the beginning of my senior year in high school, dated that guy for a year and a half and married him at the age of nineteen. We were together long enough to have four kids, the oldest of whom now has four kids of his own. We got divorced about ten years ago. Another guy approached me, treated me the way I liked being treated, and eventually proposed. I'm nearing my fourth wedding anniversary with this second fellow, NTHubby. I've mentioned him by this handle several times if you care to search my post history outside this particular thread. Those two guys in this paragraph are the only ones I've ever dated or slept with. Very few other men have ever shown interest that I could recognize as such, and I didn't consider myself "available" at the time as I was already in a relationship.

So you could probably just say that I don't know what it's like to be seeking. I've crushed on guys from afar, but never been in a relationship that didn't basically fall into my lap. Both guys in the above paragraph? Very little physical attraction at first glimpse. First glance from my eyes to each of them: kinda funny-looking. But they came to me and asked me out and acted like being on a date with me was the best thing that had ever happened to them. Very attractive. So yeah, guys can move from "funny-looking" at first glance to a "yes" to a marriage proposal from me. Not instantly; there were a lot of steps between, months of interacting and doing stuff together, at first in the company of others and moving gradually toward dates in public places and then being alone together and eventually being told I was special enough to this guy that he wanted to marry me. Each of them had loads more dating experience than I'd had; as I said these were basically the only two men I ever even dated. So it's happened to me twice that a man has moved out of the "funny looking friend" zone (the first guy was in chess club with me, so there's your mutual interest) into the dating relationship and sexual attraction zone. Maybe I'm atypical that way. I don't know. But I still hear a lot more from men about how awful it is to be attracted to a woman, and try to talk to her and she only sees me as a friend than I do from woman looking at handsome men and he doesn't know how much I wish he'd ask me out !

I've also never read a story about a woman doing a nut and murdering people over men/a man never asking her out. Maybe this is the reason women shy away from the idea that a man who approaches her might be attracted to her. If he's attracted, and she turns him down, who can guess how he'll react? Whereas sometimes it seems men can turn any gesture or facial expression a woman makes in his near vicinity to some kind of signal to him, personally, indicating her level of availability and/or attraction to him. A woman can't even toss her hair back without some men thinking she's trying to flirt with them.

Also: what wilburforce said. NThubby has a lot of trouble when my executive function goes berserk, and isn't particularly chuffed about my inability to keep house and decorate and entertain his friends at our home, and despairs when we're out in public and I get all crazy anxious about the excessive sensory input and can't cope with all the people. Even when there are ten or twelve people. Really bad when there are fifty to a hundred people. And please take me home and hide me if there are more than a hundred. NTHubby expects better of me, and when I can't deliver-- everything goes pearshaped. Because I'm autistic. I get and don't know what to do with all the people around.

Yes I'm aware that being female doesn't make autism any easier than being male. But when it comes to SEX, guys mainly care about looks more than anything else. If a guy doesn't like the way you look, it doesn't matter how socially fluid and emotionally adept you are.

On the other hand, if a guy really finds you sexually attractive based on your(particular) appearance, many of us will overlook social awkwardness and lack of nurturing qualities. From what I've observed in this forum, aspie women are often able to get into relationships but have difficulty when it comes to being in relationships and getting along with their partners. Though sometimes I do wonder if aspie women fare better with NT male partners who are able to read them and intuitively understand how they think unlike some aspie guys who have to be told directly.

It surprises me how some others could care so little about looks.

For me, I do care about looks but don't expect perfection, simply someone I am attracted to physically.

An ugly female cannot compensate with a wonderful personality, just as much as a boring and incompatible woman can compensate with good looks.

Why can't people take a realistic approach, decent/average people with decent/average personalities, instead of wanting something exceptional of one or the other?

"Maybe this is the reason women shy away from the idea that a man who approaches her might be attracted to her. If he's attracted, and she turns him down, who can guess how he'll react? Whereas sometimes it seems men can turn any gesture or facial expression a woman makes in his near vicinity to some kind of signal to him, personally, indicating her level of availability and/or attraction to him. A woman can't even toss her hair back without some men thinking she's trying to flirt with them."

It's not that women seem to intentionally ignore the signs, it's that, in my observations the females in my life SEE NO SIGNS. They don't ever think something is more than it really is. A friendly person is just friendly, nothing ever more. It takes an extreme effort on the males part for her to notice him.

While on the opposite end, all it took for the girl who had a crush on me was to walk to class with me before I instantly figured it out - had I been more confident I could have asked for her number and asked her out the very same day. She could have gotten the date from the handsome guy she wanted within just a few minutes.

Trust me, over-reading/over-thinking every interaction with the opposite sex may set you up for disappointment, but is actually a more beneficial way to live in the long-run.

Maybe it's a little disrespectful and seeing women in a very narrow view, but once you do realize they only want to be friends, that's when your view of them expands into something more real and natural - seeing them as people.

It makes you less oblivious to true, genuine attraction from others because you can pick-it-up quickly, it gives you far more opportunity regarding love/dating because you can quickly see if someone is even slightly interested and can decide to pursue them, etc.

I'd rather think everyone's coming onto me than everyone's just being friendly. It's less disappointing realizing they are just being friendly than realizing they were trying to flirt but you were blind to it - the difference is if you realize someone only wants to be friends, than you CAN be friends with them, but if someone wanted a relationship/hook-up, and you were attracted to them back, well there goes that opportunity as they don't want to bother with someone who can't take a hint.

And when it comes to a woman not being attracted to me at first but then being physically attracted to me once she gets to know me, I'd honestly rather not.

Too many bad experiences, as my first two girlfriends would constantly change their minds about me once they got to know me.

My first girlfriend was attracted to me mutually but then broke up with me after just 12 days, claiming she lost her feelings for me. We got back together a month later, and in just one day she again decided no, she actually isn't attracted to me, but delayed it for a few days and broke up with me after 5 days.

My second girlfriend, I don't even know, we just instantly hit-it-off very well and had a lot of fun together in the 'honeymoon' stage, with a few issues/arguments here and there but nothing severe, and then when she asked for a break away from me, she didn't say she was going to break-up with me, and it was just some 'alone time', yet it was a few weeks away from me and she dumped me. She claimed she didn't know me well enough as her reason. It's possible she could have lost her attraction to me as well, I don't know.

So that's why I prefer females just be decided about me from the get-go. Yes, they have to get to know me a little first, but that's what I mean!

I mean if I met a female my age, she's already physically attracted to me, if we go on just one date, she's already made-up my mind I'm a pretty cool guy personality-wise and she feels maybe we'd get along great together, and after maybe 3 dates, both of us have decided fully, 100% that, yeah, we'll try a relationship.

People who are inconsistent, always changing their minds, and undecided leave you stressed and on edge.

When both my girlfriends dumped me, I decided I'm sick of undecided people (there were also other girls last year who caused the same sort of trouble for me, always changing their mind about me, a total of FIVE, almost every girl I had a crush on or was involved with, in fact) and need a girl who knows what kind of person she wants, and what kind of relationship she wants, from the very beginning, and one who has compatible views to my own regarding this department.

It's great your two male husbands were fortunate enough to be friends with you and leave that 'friendzone' eventually, but I'm not as...patient...or tolerant, of such things...and I support other males or females who aren't as well...

It's likely a lie they tricked themselves into believing. Nearly everyone will say looks don't matter or their not superficial. But in practice they'll looks will matter in who they pick, if given the choice between to identical people but ones ugly and ones handsome they'd surely pick the better looking.

People don't want to apear to look non nice. It's considered bad to care about how people look. People don't want to seem bad, so they say they don't care but reject ugly people who ask them out.

It's how society works,it's all one big charade.

They'll never admit it though and I honestly think some really truly beleive it. Looking back at their past exes would show the truth though. To disprove them would be time consuming and creepy task of researching their history and interviewing others who were around them, perhaps those too ugly to date them.

There are perhaps a delete few who don't , like one who are asexual and have no relationship desiresm I doubt they'd care.

Some women talk about creeps which is likely code for ugly. What makes someone look creepy?mand how is that not rejecting based on looks.

This is *almost* completely true. Both men and women care about looks but for many women, good looks in a man are necessary but not sufficient. Personality traits matter to women moreso than men. So women talk about "creeps" they mean guys who are unattractive overall but NOT necessarily ugly! A good looking man who lacks the personality traits that said women are looking for but expresses overt interest in them is labled "creep/y" for being unattractive and not picking up on how those women perceive him.

Never said it was only looks.

But the opposite is true, a guy who has all the personality traits but is ugly is also labeled a creep. Most people I've seen called creepy are based entirely on looks.
"He looks creepy" where all the women have to go off of is just a picture.

True! If I can recall, women place greater weight on the personal characteristics of a partner rather than adjudicating a person solely by mere appearance.