relationship issues

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I can't really contribute anything new here at this point. All I can say is be careful.

It won't come to you using recordings against her, partly because that's not relevant, and partly because I think it might be outside due process and therefore illegal.

Then there is the issue of your living arrangements. I don't think you can just put her out on the street. It could be that gets treated like a roommate situation. You have to "evict" her, and that is its own process. You might have to go through a judge to put her on notice, after which it will take some time before you can have her forcibly removed by court order. You might be able to find sample documents in your local law library if you want to do this yourself. Typically you file a petition with the court together with the actual court order. The petition and the order are almost identical with some slight alterations in language. Those are public record, too, so you can always check with the clerk's office while you do your homework to make sure you use the correct fonts and you style the documents properly.

The least complicated way to go is to pack your things and leave. If you own the house, put it up for sale and walk away. If it's an apartment or a rental, pay up about 3 months in advance if you can, cancel the contract, and walk out. Make it her problem. If she leaves during that time, move back in and change the locks. I'd prefer this to lawyering up any day. Because when its all over with, you dislodged her from your life and you chose to be nice and compassionate about it. SHE was the crazy b!tch. People remember things like that. Always keep the moral high ground.

wow, I can relate to this OP.

I was in something similar and in the end I managed to get out after 2 years. But wow, it was difficult, she didn't want to let go. It felt like octopus tentacles wrapped around me. She started ripping my place apart and I had to pin her to the ground to get her to stop. She had so much energy I felt so inadequate wrestling her.

Then she pretended to be nice to me again, only to start her assault again. And people just laugh at when a man says that a woman beat him. I reported it the security but he advised me saying there is nothing I can do as a man.

Anyway, she became mega controlling and manipulating. My gut instinct was that things weren't lining up. She was saying one thing, but doing something else. The lies never stopped. Everything had to be done her way. And she was the only one who was ever right when it came to "who has empathy" and who is saying "wrongful things" but she was the biggest manipulator. She always made me doubt myself. I know what I said and I know it wasn't as offensive as she made it out to be. She had some way bigger issues than I could ever have imagine, always making me think, that the problem is with me. When really the problem was with her the whole time.

I'm so glad I got out of that relationship, it felt like poison, eating me inside. Luckily I know not all women are like her, but I also know better now, that I seem to keep going to these women who are "damaged" and I keep thinking I can see the good in them, because of my own struggles. But they need help that I cannot provide.

So now I am searching for someone who knows better and makes me feel comfortable about me being myself.

I found a quote: "Don't trade in your authenticity for approval."

Yauuup! That is exactly what is going on here, really is pathological lying/ psychological manipulation....She is always right and she fu*ks with my emotions so much, it's sick really. She has hurt me so bad but I put it all behind us for the sake of moving forward but now I'm seeing through her behavior and realizing it never actually stopped, she just got better at it. I stopped how many lies, both big and small, I've called her out on. I can't trust a word she says.

I'm so done feeling sorry for her, she might do nice things for me but it's all an act, or a move to advance in her own game. I honestly don't feel angry anymore, I can thank her for opening my eyes to how shity people can be....I know there's a lot of good people out there but honestly I don't think this women falls into that genre....

I might have a deteriorating relationship that never meant a thing at all, but at least I've grown a spine and I'm that much stronger now! I really gotta stop giving in to her sexual desires, I kick my self every time. It's her main defense tool when everything else fails. It's her go to weapon when she is desperate and I'm done taking the shots. It's just hard when you live with someone like that and they're constantly trying to lay you....

Yep...sounds almost identical to what I went through with my ex.

The sex thing is tough. The problem I had was that the sex was always great. I could live with that. We kept what I thought was a FWB relationship. I liked being with someone, really enjoyed how she felt, and I wasn't really making that much of an effort to be with anyone else. I'm not getting it from anyone else, and at least she's here, so why not?

The thing about sex is no matter how much you think otherwise and no matter what a girl says, there will always be a degree of emotional involvement and attachment. I've never been in that situation and had it end well. This one girl ended up cheating on her fiancé with me, and it was a bad situation at home that set it up. I looked at it as two people blowing off some steam. But then she started following me around, like a lost puppy or something. It was cute. But I was worried more about her emotional well-being, plus had she ended her relationship things would have gone badly. The relationship got better for a while after I pushed her away, and they ended up splitting over unrelated circumstances. When I ended our little affair (if you can call it that), we stayed on friendly terms.

My ex-fiancée, on the other hand, went around telling all my friends we were getting back together. And that was after a certain amount of stalking that I'd tolerated up to that point. I had to tell her never to contact me again.

I could have laughed off her lying to my friends, except they kept coming to me and telling me she was making problems for them and they needed me to put a stop to it. The near-endless sex buffet was always nice. What happened was that her behavior never changed from how it was when we were officially "together." She yelled at me for things that weren't my fault, demanded I change, etc., completely missing the point that I broke up for her because I was sick of being the only person in the relationship who could be held to account for ANYTHING. I'm like, nope, this stopped being my problem. YOU take care of it. YOU figure out what you need to do and let me have some peace for once. I can't fix you anymore. And if I listen to you, I have enough trouble as it is fixing myself. It's time to learn who we are apart.

I suspect you're going to have a hard time letting this thing go, same as I still do after almost 20 years. Let's be honest, you BOTH have problems. You can't fix her because she doesn't think she has anything to fix. You don't really WANT to fix yourself, but you've honestly tried--and you still can't get it right. Even when you deliver on exactly what she says she wants, it's still all wrong. I dumped her because I was sick of being wrong ALL the time.

The sex was really good, though. It's hard to turn that down when you can get it. I didn't mind the sex every night as long as she understood it's "just sex." With many women, "just sex" never is.

You are playing the NT-game, getting hooked on sex, and favors. No wonder it goes bad for you.

What "game"? If I want sex, all I have to do is ask. No games needed.

I also don't have to flirt or date. I'm way past all that. Anything that went bad for me happened well over a decade ago. Since high school, I have had two utterly horrible experiences with girls. Prior to that it was rough going, I admit. My main issue was settling into a LTR before I really understood what was appropriate for dating/relationships and what was not.

Towards the end of one college career, I had two minor flings that were almost not even worth mentioning and one disastrous serious relationship that was mercifully brief. When I went back to school, I had another brief fling that could have been good if she'd been single. Mind-blowing sex. The girl was mildly psychotic, so I wonder if I'd have just ended up same as with my ex fiancée. After that I was in a relationship for a little over a year. Everything was GREAT, including the sex. I could have married her and been very happy. But sometimes you have to be honest and admit your lives just aren't going the same direction.

That was probably the first time I loved someone so much that I really understood why it was important to let her go. Trying to hang on and ask her to give up so much would have been purely selfish and unfair.

It was my best friend who stuck by me no matter what. We'd been on/off for several years, and since we kept ending up together it just seemed stupid not to stay together. Yes, we love each other, but it's a lot more than love. I don't know if there is even a word for it. It's weird--like we're brother and sister, except for that whole gross incest thing. We even have the same 2nd rarest blood type. We're matched in so many ways it's stupid not to be together.

Things haven't gone bad for me in a long time.

Mostly my bad experiences were a matter of not knowing relational boundaries. Asking girls out and getting dates, or sometimes just getting a girl to make out with or have sex with, was something I had to figure out through experience. I'd have done better if I hadn't been in such a hurry to get into a relationship. So I had a lot of negative experiences that went back to late elementary school. But the few positive experiences and, indeed, the one positive experience that really mattered most of all was worth all of the bad and more.

You need to drop this girl, like a hot potato!! FORGET counseling----TOTAL waste of time, energy, money, sanity, etc., IMO----and, you were right, she WILL absolutely play the therapist, just as she has played YOU. IMO, counseling is for people who have been married for 10 years, for instance, and the romance is gone, or whatever. This girl is playing you, like a fine Stradivarius----and, YOU are letting her!!

First, and foremost, STOP HAVING SEX with her!! You said you feel like she uses it as a tool, and you're absolutely RIGHT!! The next time she starts cajoling you, think of the BABY that could result, and know that you will attached to her, FOR LIFE!!

Secondly, you have the most ideal situation, insofar as being able to easily get rid of her, cuz you work at home----so, when she leaves to go to work..... You said you had a couple of friends that would help you out----so, get them over to your residence, and gather-up all of your things----even your clothes, cuz she'll take those, too, for spite----and put them in your friends' TRUNKS of their cars (so nothing can be seen through a window). Next, have your friends stay with you, until she gets home----have it prearranged with them, that as soon as you all hear her key in the lock, one of your friends will run to the bathroom (pre-select one, or ask for a volunteer, cuz you don't want all of them getting-up to go, at-one-time, cuz you want witnesses), and call the police. The friend will tell the police that his friends are fighting, that you asked her to move-out, and she won't go.

The police will come there, escort the two of you to each room, and she can gather-up her things----if you get REALLY lucky, you can tell the police that you need your ring back, cuz it's a family heirloom (maybe, say you were letting her wear it, until you could afford to replace it, with one of her own).

You've already admitted that you have partially been to blame, as well, by creating this FABULOUS persona, so that she would want you, and that it was wrong / a lie for you to do that, and you're absolutely correct----and also, that all the bells and whistles were going-off (your gut feeling and seizures - PLUS, you saw how she treated her husband, et al.), and you didn't heed the signs (I have seizures, too, and they're the BEST alarms, EVER, regarding relationship trouble)----so I won't belabor that point, but you MUST promise YOURSELF, that you'll LEARN from this experience, and not put yourself through this nonsense / hurt, again!!

You said you felt she must have a mental problem (or, whatever word you used), and I agree!! IMO, it sounds very much like narcissism:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/communication-success/201608/8-common-narcissist-lies

3, 6, 7, and 8 seem to particularly fit your situation.

It becomes a game because the neurotypical girl wants something in return for giving you sex. If you don't play along, next time you want sex, you might not get it. It's called "tit-for-tat", and it is the way NTs handle much of their social exchange.



I basically have no horrible experiences with girls at all. I have a horrible experience with a girl's mother, but that's about it. But then I never did NT-type dating, and I don't think I've ever had an interest in an NT girl. Any NTs that might have found me interesting didn't have the patience for it to lead anywhere.



I had a strange "relationship" during my 3 years in college (she was in my class). I had a similar strange thing going on during the last year(s) of high school too. After that, I went to university and got an MSc, but that place had almost only guys, and the few girls there were basically off-limits. I also didn't find the heavy partying life interesting, so I skipped that. Actually, it took 10 years before I got interested in a girl again after college. I then had a brief real relationship with a girl with a controlling mother, which eventually ended because her mother couldn't accept that we made our own decisions. A year or so later I met wife at a dance.

As for the sex thing, I've only had sex with wife, and mostly because we wanted babies. So sex simply doesn't work as a way to control me.



Good for you, but I simply don't understand that kind of thing. I've gotten such feelings with one or two girls I've had crushes on, but never with friends.

All relationships are different. Some work out better for some than others. Nothing at all wrong with that. A lot of people romanticize being "made for each other." I don't think many people actually can end up with someone who was "made specially for them," but that's what our relationship feels like. I don't believe that there really is that "one" person for everyone, but rather you can love whoever you love and it works out. You don't have to waste your whole life looking for the one who "completes you," because if you aren't complete on your own, another person isn't going to help. I was just very fortunate to find her, and she somehow already knew. She was just waiting for me to figure it out.

Tit-for-tat relationships are simply the most functional. That's how every LTR works. I think you are confusing reciprocity for reward/punishment. I don't look at it as instant gratification. It's more an investment than a loan.

When you invest money, you accept the risk of loss for hope of long-term gain. When you loan money, you enslave a person.

You get what you want either way. A person enslaved to you either resents you or works to get out from under the debt that keeps him chained. Abuse someone enough, they'll just walk. You get nothing. Loans require interest, more than what you put into the relationship.

An investment is a long-term commitment. I need your money, and all I have to give back is a promise. But I'll work hard for you and do my best for as long as you stick by me. You do better than break even if the relationship is good. You earn dividends. And not just you, but everyone involved in the relationship.

People often end up in parasitic relationships, where one person wins and the other loses. It's a zero sum game for these people. The OP is in that kind of relationship. There's no meaningful benefit in return for what we put in, but the other person gets what she wants. There's no point to staying in a relationship like this.

Relationships that flourish are tit-for-tat. Everyone gets what they want or need. That's called symbiosis, when BOTH mutually meet the other's needs. It works best when you're doing what you want or enjoy, and the other person lives off of that. We enjoy pizza, but our budget doesn't even allow for frozen pizza. I have a knack for baking bread. I think baking bread is fun. So once a week I take my bread skills and make pizza. I'm not good at folding clothes. My wife is. I make pizza, she folds clothes, the kids wash dishes. We can't afford school lunches. I bake bread, kids make sandwiches. Wife works all day, I rub her feet at night. Because I'm obligated to rub her feet? No. Because I get enjoyment out of rubbing her pretty feet. She's tired and her back hurts. I rub her back. Because I owe her for all the work she does every day? No. Because she's a beautiful woman and it would take a special kind of idiot not to put his hands on her if he has the chance.

I save money baking bread, get to do something I enjoy, and my kids get to eat another day. I like touching my wife, she likes getting a back rub, and we share the income she gets from work.

It's not a game. It's life or death. Relationships are all about survival. If you offer absolutely nothing, absolutely no one wants you. It's selfish, but that's just our nature. It has nothing to do with any AS/NT dichotomy.

The difference between us and NTs is NTs instinctively get it, whereas for us it's more of a conscious effort. If we don't understand how doing good for others benefits us, we tend to be unwilling to comply. Altruism doesn't have much practical value because unconditional giving doesn't set a limit on the cost to the person who gives without a hope of return. You would die to save someone...for what? So they can live longer to destroy some other person's life? No. You'd die for someone because it's more important to YOU that they live. You'd give up your own life because you WANT to. You end up dead, but you end up exchanging your life for theirs.

Aspies get taken advantage of because we buy into the whole idea of selflessness without boundaries or conditions. We do good things "because somebody told us to." We have a hard time dealing with what NTs find appropriate, and we struggle to understand what other people want. It's easy to get frustrated when we don't see good results for ourselves and then just retreat into ourselves because we can better serve ourselves than play stupid NT games.

If you don't mind being a loner, that's fine. But if you can't work with others, you can't benefit from them. That means you have to impose boundaries on what you're able to do for people and hold others to your expectations of them. You have to communicate those expectations, and always give people a way out of a deal if it doesn't benefit you both. Always preserve the relationship, leave the doors open, even when things don't work out. You never know when there might be a future opportunity. If you want/need people for a goal, you have to meet them on their terms. To win with people, you have to deny yourself in the short term in exchange for a long term benefit. Tit-for-tat. You WILL get what you want, others WILL take care of you, IF you are willing and able to take care of them first. Sooner or later people WILL come to you for help. You will help them, and you won't ask for anything in return. Why? Because one day you'll be in need yourself. You'll call your friend up and say, "hey man, I need to call in a favor..." If he can't help or find someone who can, ok. Call in another favor. No help? No problem...release yourself from any future obligation to this person, because he is a useless sponge. Or help him anyway, because when people see how generous you are, they will want to help you. It always comes back. If it doesn't come back, let it go.

Romantic relationships are the same way. Aspie, NT, doesn't matter. If you can't meet each other on mutual terms, if you have nothing to offer, if you don't DO something, all the love in the world can't force it to work.

A typical scenario I see often is a ND guy just wants a gf who will hang out and play video games. The trouble is finding an attractive gf who prefers being locked in the dungeon all day. Or the ND who needs a lot of space and who doesn't surface for weeks at a time. Or the ND with frequent meltdowns who takes it out on his partner. We all just want someone who will just love us. That's all. No expectations, just be there. Except I'm ND with nothing to offer, so I get a pass. No, that's not how women work. That's not even how PEOPLE work, ND or not, male or female.

Sometimes the only thing you get out of someone is the satisfaction of knowing you did something good. Maybe you get pleasure from giving someone else pleasure. That's an exercise of power over someone, btw. There is always a return.

You have a pretty good idea about ND preferences, but you just don't believe they actually work. Still, they do work, and they should work too.

When you hear ND guys that are into video games, you might think they want to lock down their gf in a dungeon. Or the ND guy that needs a lot of alone time, clearly he can never find a gf, right? Wrong. You fail to understand how functional ND relationships start. Most of these ND guys are actually highly flexible in their requirements (unlike many NTs), and if given the opportunity, will negotiate something that is functional for both of them. Not with tit-for-tat, but because they want to find common ground with their partner, and can adapt most of their preferences. That's what got the OP into trouble: He adapted too much to a girl that clearly was incompatible and that knew how to exploit him. If the girl had been ND and more compatible, it could have worked out just fine.

This is not just guys either. There are ND girls that could lock down their bf in a dungeon too and those that need a lot of alone time. This is not specific to ND guys, rather is just as common in ND girls.

The natural way NDs adapt to each other are not compatible with dating and NT preferences. First, NDs don't need to be as similar as NTs in order to get along, as they are more adaptable. That means selection of similar interests is not functional for NDs, rather, it only narrows down the pool of potential partners for no good reason. It's even negative because they never get to go through the process of adapting to each others so they never get any experience from this which is crucial for ND LTRs. In every relationship I've ever been in, I've always been through this process and come up with something that is acceptable for both parties. In my experience, this typically works between random people, so there is no need for matching interests.

When it comes to tit-for-tat, NDs really don't need that in ND-ND relationships, LTR or not. The initial negotiation of interests, how they relate, and the rules of the relationship becomes static early on, so they don't need tit-for-tat, rather there will be unconditional "favors". Sure, if one part regularly violates the set rules, eventually it will break, but that seldom happens between NDs because the rules and boundaries are negotiated, and not innate. For NTs, the rules and boundaries are innate NT rules, like tit-for-tat, and they typically are never negotiated. This is why NDs have no idea of the rules and boundaries in NT relationships, and why they frequently break them because they don't know them.

Your talk about offering something is also NT-talk. NDs don't think in terms of "I can offer her this". The negotiation process will initially setup what the expectations are, what people are willing to do, and it is not done by offering things, but by doing things. Once these expectations are in place, breaking them is painful, so I'll avoid doing that. Sure, the expectations can and do change over time, but it is typically a slow process. Tit-for-tat is a fast process for quickly changing expectations, which NDs don't like, and even find painful. So while you rub your gf because of tit-for-tat requirements, I'd do that just because she wants me to, and I don't care if she does something in return or not. If I set up the negotiation in an appropriate way, she will do things for me without tit-for-tat too, so I know we have a mutual exchange.

Finally, NDs are bad at knowing what others (including their partner) want. That is because, in the natural state, they don't have to deal with second-guessing what their partner needs. The negotiation process is not about trying to guess what a partner needs, it's about giving suggestions (by doing things or saying things) and rating them. There is no guess-work involved.

Also note that I don't have a fixed list of "I can offer this", so I cannot "sell" my self with that kind of information. What I actually end up offering a partner depends on how she responds to my suggestions, and what she think is important. I also have no set of requirements, because I basically have no requirements, but I have a set of things I think are important, and which I will negotiate with a partner. Some of them will easily be accepted, while others I might decide I can live without. It all depends on the girl.

Power and control certainly have nothing to do with this. The negotiation typically happens between people that don't know each other and ideally when there is a mutual crush. In this state, there is a strong desire to work things out. Also, the negotiation process is a mutual process, and not a "you must do this for me", so has nothing to do with control or power. Instead, this becomes a problem when NTs are involved, as they cannot handle this process.

Why?