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cberg
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06 Apr 2018, 7:42 pm

@Goldfish/XFG - I'm with BunnyB here, not qualified as she is but I've been in plenty of rough spots all the same.

I think suggestions of 'too much empathy', or that people venting should self-censor & emotionally trend upwards without rational cause ignore that no one has predictable emotions. Empathy is a passive reaction, not really energy intensive. If you're not feeling it, common courtesy doesn't really call for saying so. Truth be told, no matter how stable, humans are vulnerable. I think attempts to exalt emotional control can obscure anyone's perception of their real intellectual depth - almost all conscious thought elicits emotions.

TL;DR we should all pay attention to anyone we talk to rather than talk at them.


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06 Apr 2018, 7:43 pm

There's a huge difference between a thread being aimed at certain individuals and attacking those individuals. Huge.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
I really don't understand the hostility directed at me here. I have been depressed (to the point of being self-injurious and suicidal) and I survived it because I managed (with help) to change some of my behaviour and thinking patterns, and now I want to help other people survive it. It's that simple. Why is that seen as an attack? I have lived through an experience and when I see someone else living through a similar experience, I feel prompted to share what helped me get through my experience. Is that so strange?

I'm really confused by some of the reaction to this thread.


Ditto this. I, too, have shared on these forums that I used to suffer from passively suicidal thoughts, and that I've managed to overcome these things & hope others do as well.


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06 Apr 2018, 8:09 pm

Kara: I think it’s mainly directed at me. Don’t worry about it.

Like some members have said to us before, if you don’t like the thread stay out of it. I think it would be cool for people who disagree to come in and participate as well. Just remember, it’s the idea being attacked, not the person.



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07 Apr 2018, 2:26 am

goldfish21 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Sabreclaw wrote:
So you've taken your favourite generalization and made it a bit wordier. Nice to see you pulling out all the stops to metaphorically punch depressed people in the face.

Has it perhaps occurred to you that not everyone with self-esteem difficulties is a blood-sucking parasite that spends their entire time around other people letting everyone know how miserable they are?

Just because I hate myself doesn't mean I can't live for those I care about and make them happy. Stop assuming we're all soulless.


Where did anyone say any of this? :?

If that's the message you're receiving then your interpretation of the posts in this thread is distorted by your depression.


I guess the OP and another member, not you.

I am definitely with the bunnyb/Sabreclaw camp though.


I wasn't referring only to my posts. I've read this entire thread and nowhere in it has anyone said anything that bunnyb/Sabreclaw alleges.

If any of us wanted to "punch depressed people in the face," with our posts then we'd do it instead of posting positivity and sound advice regarding love/dating/relationships/friendships and other social interactions when you're in a very depressed state of mind.

If people are ignorant of how their depression is unattractive or not conducive to a happy healthy friendship or relationship and that they're better off working on themselves in the short term so that they're better able to have relationships in the long term, then they need to hear & learn those things from people who've already been there, done that, experienced it, and are in a position to advise them on it.

No one has been hurtful or negative. Everyone has offered genuinely positive real world workable advice.


AngelRho is always hurtful. His posts reek of contempt for people with depression. This one, for instance, is just a gigantic long-winded way of saying people with depression are incapable of caring about others. He refuses to accept that some people who struggle to accept themselves aren't totally selfish.



Sabreclaw
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07 Apr 2018, 2:29 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Sabreclaw wrote:
So you've taken your favourite generalization and made it a bit wordier. Nice to see you pulling out all the stops to metaphorically punch depressed people in the face.

Has it perhaps occurred to you that not everyone with self-esteem difficulties is a blood-sucking parasite that spends their entire time around other people letting everyone know how miserable they are?

Just because I hate myself doesn't mean I can't live for those I care about and make them happy. Stop assuming we're all soulless.



No, I assume depressed people are hurting....deeply.

But, my pragmatic side knows there's only so much a "regular" person can do to help a depressed person without getting stuck in the "Bog of Eternal Stench."

It's a very careful balance between catering to the needs of the sick person, and recognizing the abilities and limits of the non-sick to deal with those needs. If anything, I have too much empathy for everyone.


I was responding to the OP, not your post.

I don't want people on this forum to magically make me love myself, I just wish certain people would stop indirectly accusing me of being incapable of caring for others.



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07 Apr 2018, 5:03 am

It's not that difficult to imagine how some of the things said in this thread can be hurtful to someone with depression and can do more harm than good. If you have ever been depressed you should be aware that depressed minds tend to pick the most negative statements that were said and tend to interpret statements about themselves in the most negative way possible. If you try to read some of the things that were said with the most negative connotation you can probably tell that there's a chance a severely depressed person reads them as "You're a worthless selfish leech and everyone you know would be better off without you. Go kill yourself already".

There also seems to be the assumption that depressed people are completely unaware that constant negative interaction can be toxic and that depression can be contagious and that it needs to be repeated again and again and again until they finally get it. Bear in mind that you know little about how any forum-member interacts with people in real life. That all they say on here is a constant stream of negativity does not mean that's all they say in real life. I've been more or less depressed for years and for two years less but still for years my family thinks I'm fine now and no longer depressed. What keeps me from having many social contacts is that depression is exhausting, not that I'm constantly venting and complaining to everyone around me. It can limit the closeness and quantity of my interpersonal relationships but I highly doubt it's draining for others emotional energy (It may have been for one person while I was severely depressed because that person was trying way too hard to help me and I still haven't figured out why as, while I liked that person a lot, we weren't even friends and my social anxiety was much too bad to make friends with anyone. But I never wanted him to get hurt I just couldn't figure out how to make him stop trying to help without hurting his feelings).

If a depressed person keeps others pushing them away because they're constantly negative, this person needs to realize that others have feelings too and no infinite amount of emotional energy. But a lot of depressed people are aware of this and them venting online is no indication that they are not. Online you don't need to read something if it frustrates you or brings you down. I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone venting in their own thread.
It is also possible that a depressed person overestimates how boring or worthless they are to others and makes themselves lonely more than they'd have to. In that case pointing out how depressed people can be harmful is not helping. Depressed or socially anxious people can also be too careful what they say and thus seem boring. This can come from a fear of accidentally hurting others not only from a fear of getting hurt. In that case pointing out how bad they are for other people is not going to help.
I think there's better indication that some people on here are overly anxious or shy than that they can't stop being emotional vampires in real life. I think some perpetually single people on here aren't at a high risk to become emotional vampires in a relationship.
You can help people by helping them change but only if you can figure out what they think they can't change and can help them find a way anyway and only if you accept that (at least at a given time) not everyone is capable of making every change. You can't help them by essentially telling them that others would be better of if they didn't exist or telling them something that is likely to be interpreted that way. Helping someone figure out why others are not interested in relationships with them (any kind of relationship) or why others think they are not interested in relationships is helping. Making an already insecure and depressed person feel even more insecure and depressed is not.

I think maybe bunnyb should explain in more detail why this thread is not helpful for the majority severely depressed people if she's still reading this. I'm sure she can do that much better than me.



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07 Apr 2018, 7:58 am

NorthWind wrote:
It's not that difficult to imagine how some of the things said in this thread can be hurtful to someone with depression and can do more harm than good. If you have ever been depressed you should be aware that depressed minds tend to pick the most negative statements that were said and tend to interpret statements about themselves in the most negative way possible. If you try to read some of the things that were said with the most negative connotation you can probably tell that there's a chance a severely depressed person reads them as "You're a worthless selfish leech and everyone you know would be better off without you. Go kill yourself already".

There also seems to be the assumption that depressed people are completely unaware that constant negative interaction can be toxic and that depression can be contagious and that it needs to be repeated again and again and again until they finally get it. Bear in mind that you know little about how any forum-member interacts with people in real life. That all they say on here is a constant stream of negativity does not mean that's all they say in real life. I've been more or less depressed for years and for two years less but still for years my family thinks I'm fine now and no longer depressed. What keeps me from having many social contacts is that depression is exhausting, not that I'm constantly venting and complaining to everyone around me. It can limit the closeness and quantity of my interpersonal relationships but I highly doubt it's draining for others emotional energy (It may have been for one person while I was severely depressed because that person was trying way too hard to help me and I still haven't figured out why as, while I liked that person a lot, we weren't even friends and my social anxiety was much too bad to make friends with anyone. But I never wanted him to get hurt I just couldn't figure out how to make him stop trying to help without hurting his feelings).

If a depressed person keeps others pushing them away because they're constantly negative, this person needs to realize that others have feelings too and no infinite amount of emotional energy. But a lot of depressed people are aware of this and them venting online is no indication that they are not. Online you don't need to read something if it frustrates you or brings you down. I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone venting in their own thread.
It is also possible that a depressed person overestimates how boring or worthless they are to others and makes themselves lonely more than they'd have to. In that case pointing out how depressed people can be harmful is not helping. Depressed or socially anxious people can also be too careful what they say and thus seem boring. This can come from a fear of accidentally hurting others not only from a fear of getting hurt. In that case pointing out how bad they are for other people is not going to help.
I think there's better indication that some people on here are overly anxious or shy than that they can't stop being emotional vampires in real life. I think some perpetually single people on here aren't at a high risk to become emotional vampires in a relationship.
You can help people by helping them change but only if you can figure out what they think they can't change and can help them find a way anyway and only if you accept that (at least at a given time) not everyone is capable of making every change. You can't help them by essentially telling them that others would be better of if they didn't exist or telling them something that is likely to be interpreted that way. Helping someone figure out why others are not interested in relationships with them (any kind of relationship) or why others think they are not interested in relationships is helping. Making an already insecure and depressed person feel even more insecure and depressed is not.

I think maybe bunnyb should explain in more detail why this thread is not helpful for the majority severely depressed people if she's still reading this. I'm sure she can do that much better than me.


It’s because, from what I noticed, there are so many members who believe very strongly in karma-like and other pseudo-things.

Meaning if you have negative thoughts or negative feelings; then no matter how you act outwardly, your thoughts would radiate as negatives vibes.

And that people and especially women are so amazing in “detecting these vibes”, like radars, and would repell them from you.

All this is just karma pseudo psychology-mystic talk.

In my experience, people rarely catch anything of your deep thoughts and feelings unless you tell them or crying of course, otherwise they barely give a damn actually or even notice anything.



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07 Apr 2018, 9:19 am

bunnyb wrote:
So XGF, you have read the thread and do not see it as personal. Well you are the only person to think that. Everyone else who has posted knows exactly who it is aimed at. But it's OK. I now understand that if someone is unpopular / irritating, it's OK to obliquely bag them and use derogatory terms in reference to them under the guise of 'helping'. I'm not sure how much more 'help' either of them deserve though.

You say your aware of how difficult it is for a 'regular person' not to get stuck in the bog of eternal stench, well in this case it's simple, regular people don't need to post hurtful comments. They don't need to express their frustration and dissatisfaction; they can just walk away. But no, they are frustrated that they have not managed to change the behaviour of the members in question so it escalates to highly emotive words and those words have great capacity to hurt.

Now people may say what do I know, well, I happen to have a couple of letters after my name. They are BSc Psych. Who would have thunk it huh! I used to work in acute psych. I have walked out on rooftops and talked people out of jumping. I've been sort of shot at by a guy with paranoia when I was making a home visit. I say sort of because he swore he was aiming at the car not me. Personally I think he was just a bad shot. I've also found people hanging, exsanguinated and OD'd. I know how self-loathing/depression effects people. I can tell you that tough love is not a recognised therapeutic approach and that in my qualified opinion, this thread has the potential to be very damaging to the people it's aimed at. But don't let me stop y'all from 'helping' as you see fit, I just hope nobody gets pushed too far. Now I'm walking away from this because I recognise I cannot change the behaviour of other people in this thread and as tempting as it is to use emotive words to try and provoke them, I'm not going to.


The subjects being discussed here affect more than just two people on this forum, and it's rather ludicrous to suggest that we can't ever so much as talk about these topics because someone might take it badly.

And, sorry to say, dealing with severely depressed people IS difficult. As people with autism (who can also be difficult to deal with), we tend to speak our minds, and, no, recognizing that dealing with severely depressed people is, in fact, difficult, is not an "attack."

And just because someone may feel offended doesn't necessarily mean they've actually been "attacked." I'm generally, as both a poster and a moderator, I'm not a big fan of the, "This subject/opinion/POV offend me, so I demand that no one discuss it, or bring it up." It's a form of emotional blackmail that I've built-up a healthy immunity towards.

In the mean time, I'll ask the other mods what they think.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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07 Apr 2018, 3:57 pm

Learned helplessness is also a thing, and coddling people with it only reinforces the helplessness. Encouraging people not to get professional help for their depression and allowing them to believe if they never make any different choices their depression will somehow magically go away if they just find someone to fall in love with is what is cruel, if you ask me.



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07 Apr 2018, 4:25 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Learned helplessness is also a thing, and coddling people with it only reinforces the helplessness. Encouraging people not to get professional help for their depression and allowing them to believe if they never make any different choices their depression will somehow magically go away if they just find someone to fall in love with is what is cruel, if you ask me.


Agreed. It's nothing more than a fanciful self told fairytale. I'd much prefer people in that situation went the route of being determined to overcome their depression, whether on their own or with professional help, in order to then be the type of person that's ready for a relationship and love in their lives. It's also, IMO, a much more realistically achievable outcome than a partner magically appearing and making them feel better.


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07 Apr 2018, 4:53 pm

So if we're really focused on the positives here why has nobody mentioned that there's any point in relating to someone?

I don't think I have to be perfectly reconciled with myself to do so, nor do I expect anyone I'm involved with to never get depressed. I see a lot of black & white thinking in this thread. You may not be attacking anyone as you all self-qualified otherwise but that sure hasn't stopped any of the alienation nor social Darwinism, which is as much or more a myth than karma or anything else people comfort their minds with.

I also don't think anyone gets as negative IRL as some do online, it's not common in person.


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Last edited by cberg on 07 Apr 2018, 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

goldfish21
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07 Apr 2018, 5:18 pm

cberg wrote:
So if we're really focused on the positives here why has nobody mentioned that there's any point in relating to someone?


I'm not sure what your question is. Care to rephrase?


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07 Apr 2018, 6:11 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Learned helplessness is also a thing, and coddling people with it only reinforces the helplessness. Encouraging people not to get professional help for their depression and allowing them to believe if they never make any different choices their depression will somehow magically go away if they just find someone to fall in love with is what is cruel, if you ask me.


Agreed. It's nothing more than a fanciful self told fairytale. I'd much prefer people in that situation went the route of being determined to overcome their depression, whether on their own or with professional help, in order to then be the type of person that's ready for a relationship and love in their lives. It's also, IMO, a much more realistically achievable outcome than a partner magically appearing and making them feel better.

Exactly. I’m not personally a “professional help” guy as I mentioned earlier, but that doesn’t mean you can’t benefit from it. It’s a choice you make that might make the difference between overcoming depression and not. I never overcame it, but it doesn’t own me, either.

I’m not entirely against coddling. I think there’s a place for validation and encouragement. I can’t say this applies to anyone on WP because I don’t know every situation, but there are those for whom romantic LTR is just not in the cards due to severe disability. Saying whatever someone needs to hear or just being there to listen or to validate is plenty appropriate.

My issue is, honestly, I’m just not that patient. If it’s obviously a case of learned helplessness, I can’t really sympathize. That’s IRL...I can’t really make that judgment on WP, but I have my suspicions regardless.

Kara, I did look back and I think I saw what you mean about being attacked. It’s the whole self-loathing=abuser angle you took. I have to agree. I’ve reported users before for provocative behavior (no one currently on WP) because they wanted to trap me into expressing something against TOS and allow them to play the victim. As to whether self-loathing was in play is up for debate, but it most certainly was bullying behavior.

It bears repeating that my working definition of self-hate is manifested in outward behavior, not cognitive behavior. I’m not so much interested in negative self-talk, self-pity, depression, etc. as I am how someone responds to others. And I think the sense that someone can lose control of a forum topic can appear threatening to someone whose worldview depends on validation. It’s far easier to bully someone by trying to take control of something than it is to take action against both physical and cognitive manifestations of self-loathing.

Anyone can say “I started this thread, I can’t control it, it causes me stress, shut it down.” But if someone else says, “hey, I’m not going to reopen this in a new thread, but I observed THIS and think it would be productive to discuss it,” it’s challenging. Both in the content AND because it was started by someone else, which takes away a bully’s ability to exert control. And, yeah, Kara, if you’re correct that learned helplessness is at play here, the bullies will come out of the woodwork to shut it down if they’re allowed to.

What’s important to understand is the bullies DO NOT KNOW that they are being bullies. They see their behavior as justified. They are the victims. This very likely is caused by years—DECADES, even—of ongoing abuse at the hands of bullies. I still get this from co-workers/superiors, obviously students, etc. It’s not what it was because of context and I have the so-called “bully pulpit” myself, but it still happens. More often it takes the form of avoidance and isolation rather than verbal and physical abuse, but one “friend” actually called DHS on me on multiple occasions. Another “friend” had my wife physically removed from church. From freakin CHURCH. And there was no justification for it. Certain people took it upon themselves to push us around simply because we didn’t fit the mold, simple as that.

Trust me, I understand how good it would feel to lash out and get even. But that comes at the expense of lowering myself to the character of those who victimized me. The best revenge is always success, anyway.

There’s always a better way. Overcoming abuse by becoming an abuser yourself is not really overcoming it. It’s embracing, giving in, and surrendering to it.



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07 Apr 2018, 6:49 pm

cberg wrote:
So if we're really focused on the positives here why has nobody mentioned that there's any point in relating to someone?

I don't think I have to be perfectly reconciled with myself to do so, nor do I expect anyone I'm involved with to never get depressed. I see a lot of black & white thinking in this thread. You may not be attacking anyone as you all self-qualified otherwise but that sure hasn't stopped any of the alienation nor social Darwinism, which is as much or more a myth than karma or anything else people comfort their minds with.

I also don't think anyone gets as negative IRL as some do online, it's not common in person.

Yeah, you’re probably right. Because the internet is a sort of curtain that, for now at least, gives us the freedom to be expressive within reason. But all we can really do is address the behaviors we observe and assume those saying things are being honest.

Also true regarding alienation, Darwinism, etc. The alt views being expressed here, the whole “this just makes me more depressed so nobody can discuss it” crowd, are partially fueled by isolation among other things. What do you DO about it?

I’ve made lengthy posts about it in other threads I didn’t start. Not everyone agrees with my approach, but I think what’s most important is applying consistency to any well-reasoned plan of action.

So...extremely short version of a complicated answer: Love yourself.



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07 Apr 2018, 8:04 pm

cberg wrote:
So if we're really focused on the positives here why has nobody mentioned that there's any point in relating to someone?

I don't think I have to be perfectly reconciled with myself to do so, nor do I expect anyone I'm involved with to never get depressed. I see a lot of black & white thinking in this thread. You may not be attacking anyone as you all self-qualified otherwise but that sure hasn't stopped any of the alienation nor social Darwinism, which is as much or more a myth than karma or anything else people comfort their minds with.

I also don't think anyone gets as negative IRL as some do online, it's not common in person.


Oh, there certainly is a point to relating to someone. That's why most people aim to have a significant other in their life. Even as someone who's been single my entire life, I comprehend that. I'm not always positive & optimistic and I do relate to others in my life, even when I was quite depressed. However, as I shared earlier, when I was at my lowest of lows I isolated myself from close friends and family (and everyone) in order not to be a negative influence on them. Also, while I was depressed, I was hyper aware of the fact that I was depressed and intentionally avoided any possibility of dating or a relationship as I'd want to feel whole & like I had something to bring to the table vs. being an emotional drain on someone else. Now I'm much more whole and relatively positive and at least open to the possibility that I might have a significant other at some point in my life, yet at the same time I don't seek it out AT ALL because *shrug* I know the way I am and I'm not really suited to be anyone's partner. I am cut out for solo pursuits to the nth degree, though, and intend to utilize my strengths academically and professionally. I get and receive love from the closest friends & family in my life and it's more than sufficient.

Call me extra judgey all you want, but I just don't think it's socially appropriate to be seeking a date or romantic partner in life when you're chronically suicidally depressed. Such a depression isn't attractive and is a burden on the other person involved. I think people should acknowledge that and deal with their mental health before entering the dating world, out of both consideration for others as well as in order to set yourself up for the best chance of success in a relationship.


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08 Apr 2018, 1:09 am

AngelRho wrote:
Also true regarding alienation, Darwinism, etc. The alt views being expressed here, the whole “this just makes me more depressed so nobody can discuss it” crowd, are partially fueled by isolation among other things. What do you DO about it?


I'm absolutely not saying there's anything wrong with discussing depression or the effect it can have on other people.
I just think that if it is done to 'help' severely depressed people one should bear in mind if they'll be listening to you the way you discuss it or not. I also think that some people who claim to be helping are at least as motivated by their own frustration about certain threads as they are by trying to help.

And finally, some people may not be in a state of mind where they are able to find or maintain a romantic relationship, but I think there's a bit much emphasis on self-isolation as a way of dealing with it. Especially when some suggest that posting negative things in a forum on their own threads is somehow wrong.