Increasing popularity of friends-first approach

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There's an important psychological factor in attraction which is that the woman usually knows fairly quickly whether you are dateable or not. The trick is having that insight to understand whether you actually passed that first test.

One thing the friendzone does provide an opportunity is for a man to persuade his female friend he is "worthy" of dating, but I think this should happen reasonably quickly and not after being friendzoned for several years. At a certain point you then become a male "handbag" or merely emotional support to prop up her self-esteem.

If she/he likes you, she/he would be liking you secretly all through the friendship.
I don’t believe in the « if X time passed then he/she puts you in friendzone ».
She/he either likes you or not, regardless of time.

I've never particularly liked the term 'friend zoned' but I know unrequited feelings can be painful. Certainly I've been there. I've also been on the other side, where someone has felt that way about me but I didn't feel the same way. Not out of cruelty - I didn't string anyone along.

Sometimes it's painful to reject someone. Yes, yes, I can feel the eye rolls, but no, seriously. I think it's one thing to reject a stranger at a bar, but to reject a close friend, one you wish you could return feelings for but simply don't... that can sting. You don't want to hurt your friend, but you know that pretending, even if it's nice in the short term, is far more painful for them in the long term.

Then you have added fuel to the argument that women should be more upfront with their intentions. There is an Alanis Morrisette song (yes apologies in advance I am showing my age) where she sings about "you have already won me over" where a man is oblivious to the fact that she already fell in love with him. He continues trying when infact he doesn't have to.

In reality (or at least in my experience) its not really a question of a man not picking up cues. The level of interest shown by a female can be gauged by a sliding scale of her actions which gradually escalates based on how quickly she wants the relationship to evolve to intimacy. I have conversely had female friends in my 20s whom I was not physically attracted to but who made overtures which gradually became more obvious to the point where they may as well have said "me want sex"

I actually don't consider that to be good advice, at least not beyond a certain point. I think expressing a little basic curiosity about other people's interests is fine, but not trying to deceive the person into believing that you actually share the interest, if in fact you don't. Maybe just say something like, "Not my thing, but is it okay if I ask you a few questions about it?" -- and then ask a few questions if the other person is willing. It's also fine to be willing to try out a new activity. But I think it's important to be clear from the get-go that it's not really your thing, or that you are just a dabbler/newbie.

Once, years ago, I was doing some political tabling in Manhattan. A guy offered to help me out, and did so for a few hours. I assumed that he did so because he believed in and cared about the cause. At the end, we exchanged phone numbers, presumably for the purpose of coordinating another round of tabling (or other relevant activity). But THEN it turned out that he had NO significant interest in the cause at all, but was interested only in asking me for a date. This I found very annoying.


This I think is good advice, at least up to a point. Yes, it's often a good idea to express interest in the other person and to make the other person the main focus. But self-disclosure should be a two-way street.

Not in my case.

My current and longest-lasting relationship began after I had known my partner for at least three and a half years. Had he expressed an interest in me much earlier than that, I would not have been interested.

My partner and I started out as work colleagues (he was actually my boss for about a year), then became business partners after we both got fired, then gradually became friends, then supported each other through some major life crises.

One of the reasons why it took so long for us to get into a romantic relationship was a general reluctance by both of us to mix business with romance. But, once the relationship finally did form, it was solid.


WTF??? This is certainly a vast overgeneralization.

With this I totally agree.

Maybe you could try to see if you can expand your range of interests?

Don't fake it and don't force yourself, but maybe poke around on Meetup.com and see if you find any groups devoted to topics or activities that may be new to you but strike your fancy in some way, and that also attract a fair number of women?

Mona, come forward....

....I king Boo, I call you the forward, to all here present, know ye that Mona Pereth, having been recognized for long and honorable service to Wrongplanet is hereby admitted as a Distinguished Knight in the L&D order.

Sir Mona Pereth, please kneel and receive your knighthood.

I don't think NTs take it that extreme, I think Pepe's advice is sort of 'compromise'.

It's difficult to know when to let your feelings be known. Usually I don't, unless I know that the woman in question is gay or bisexual. Typically I make it known that I like women indirectly (e.g. Maybe an off-hand comment about finding Kristen Stewart attractive aka 'Kristen was the only reason I watched Twilight' ) then I can judge how that comment is taken. Which gives me an idea if this person is accepting or not. If they are, I can be a little more overt but not too much, I'll ask a couple more questions to figure out if the person is an ally or if they're in the community. Also I wear a pride badge, so if you miss that - I don't know what to tell you.

Some women are very forward. I remember when I knew a guy who liked this girl. She is bisexual. Anyway, we were hanging out as a group one time and she made a move on me. Which was unfortunate because that's not how the meeting was supposed to go at all. The absolute glare I got from this man. In my defense, she was the one who hit on me! I didn't want this! I was routing for you guys to get together. Oh dear. Matchmaking spectacularly failed that day. It wasn't subtle at all the way she interacted with me. She said that I was cute and that it was a shame I lived so far away, otherwise she'd be tempted to take me over to her place. I practically thought 'welp. It was nice knowing you all. I think I've unintentionally made an enemy for life'.

Moral of the story: don't attempt to play matchmaker I guess.

^^You deserve a Knighthood for this too, maybe you shall be Mona’s riding dragon.

I am my own dragon.

Sure, I get that. I wouldn't say you're wrong that looks do play a part, often, but certainly for me there's a strong element of personality. A less attractive woman can be greatly more attractive if I get to know she's a good person, that she's fun, that she accepts me for being me, if she's curious, smart, etc.

Biologically, of course, my eyes see that picture and my body goes "ACTION STATIONS! THERE IS AN ATTRACTIVE WOMAN HERE! RELEASE THE HORMONES!", because that's just human instinct, right? Rather irritatingly I find that very invasive, as it happens, because if there's nothing I can do about that chemical stimulation, I'm left to desperately wish I had a real outlet for that.

However, if I met that woman, and she turned out to be so overly focussed on appearance and praise for her physique and had no interest in deep conversation, if she wasn't inclined to read or learn or discover, if she looked down upon "nerds", things like that, then I would quickly resolve the problem by finding her very uninteresting to be around, potentially even a very shallow and unpleasant person in general.

Looks only go so far, I can't sustain interest just because you resemble a highly pampered model, I need the rest of the human to go with it. Looks alone might be great if you're the type of person who enjoys casual no-strings intimacy, purely for the sake of indulging in carnal lust, but that's not me.

But I suppose my point was that it's so far out of the realms of reality for many men who struggle with this sort of thing that it would have to come across as being unreal somehow; a trick, a con, a tease, a trap, whatever it might be. It's so ludicrously unbelievable to go from "no woman has ever shown interest in me and many have actively rejected or been disgusted by me" to "this woman who quite clearly could have a million men by lunchtime wants me". It's just not realistic, is it?

That does of course mean that some men who may have been lucky enough to have been presented with an opportunity by a woman they found stunning may have blindly ignored it, believing it to be a joke, or writing it off as their imagination running wild and not wanting to believe there was a chance so as not to accept it and find out there wasn't one, and that they overreached and embarrassed themselves.

Hmm, not sure I would rule out "playing matchmaker" entirely. But maybe best not to arrange a 3-way meeting for that purpose? Maybe find some other way to introduce them, e.g. in terms of a shared interest?