To nonvirgin gays & st8s: STOP GLOATING ABOUT YOUR SEX L

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I did not mean that I wanted to be comforted, more like just blowing off steam. If you read my other posts here, I don't really care for platitudes and people trying to do what is best for me by hurting me. I'd rather the masks came off. That's when you see if people really care.



Are you actually sincerely asking that question? Don't toy with me on this one. I have NEVER been asked this question. At this point, even though I made that comment in the OP, no one has even referred to that part of the OP, and most seem to ignore it, or prove my point by assuming things about me without asking me.



I am sorry if I gave off the impression that people should already know what I need. The point was that the impression *I get* from people is that they think they know what I need without asking me. How serious would you consider such generic advice? It is like a doctor diagnosing a patient without knowing anything about them. Usually, in this sort of dialogue, I usually first state that I have tried their advice or something similar (though sometimes they offer something new), and then begin to describe similar things I have tried. People then tend to give up fairly quickly, sort of demonstrating that they were not really interested in helping.



Would you read a book on how to drive a car from a fighter jet pilot who fills the book with how awesome flying a fighter jet is? I would love to read a post from a virgin with lots of dating experience (who simply is holding his virginity for the right moment).



Is it necessary to respond to this?




Saying something is "not without merit" makes no implication concerning the amount of merit. These are merely cliches that have some applicability somewhere, but are so vague and general as to be personally meaningless. In general, when people give that sort of advice, over and over again, and do not adjust to different circumstances, they are not really trying to help. Rather, they are merely promoting some ideology; some magic hammer that applies to all situations to solve any problem.



"Being yourself" means whatever you want it to mean. It is like a ambiguous overly general campaign slogan, like "Change". Change what? Well that is up to the voters to decide. Every voter interprets this as changing the things they don't like, while keeping the things they like the same. No two voters agree on what they mean by "change", but they think they do.

Leave this sound bite culture for politics and the media. Its worse enough that we must be exposed to it out there, but don't bring that filthy thing home with you, heh.




And yet, that's just what you did.

Simple rule: if it doesn't matter, then people don't react. As my students often heard, "if I didn't care, I wouldn't be pushing you harder." I am being serious in asking you what you've tried; you're absolutely correct in that if one doesn't know what you've tried, their advice will be largely irrelevant and misguided. You've done a lot here in the community, and a great member with good insights - if possible, I would like to help if I am able, though I don't make any claim to know any sort of answers. If I offered presumptions, you have my apologies as my intent was to express my feelings and responses to what has been said earlier. All too often people have presumed to know how to advise me, not knowing what I have tried in how to cope with different things, how to approach the world. If you seek advice from other virgins, then start a thread asking for their input - but all of us were virgins at one point, so there is the shared experience there.

Yes, I do want a response - your posts contradict themselves, and have left me confused as to the purpose behind your posts over time.

Ok - if they are vague, then can you ask clarifying questions? I don't know where the applicability is brought into question, so it is hard to answer the point of confusion. Being yourself is an essential part of a successful relationship; people can tell when you do not like yourself, and as a result will spend time looking for the reasons why. What it means to be yourself varies from person to person, but I would be glad to talk more about what is could mean for you. For me, it meant accepting that I wasn't going to be successful being a caricature of what other people expected. It meant that I had to learn to like myself, because until I did that I figured there was no reason for anyone else to. I had to choose to express my strengths unabashedly instead of being ashamed of them, even if other people couldn't understand. Their issues could not be my problem; I can only control my own actions. The process sucked, and I was lonely a lot of the time. I made a lot of mistakes and had to learn to forgive myself. Being myself did not mean I quit trying to improve myself, only in what I desired and how I approached it.

I don't quite understand your last comment; I asked for clarity so that we might talk more. But we also have to accept that others don't have all the answers; no one told me how to get through things, and I don't think anyone could have. But I'd welcome the chance to talk more - just please realize that when you are hostile, it creates difficulty in being unaffected and objective. Look forward to your response:


M.

I'm going to post somewhat generally here, picking out comments from a variety of people out of context. So no offense is intended if I respond to one person's comments as if they meant something else, because I am responding to ideas as I think others might interpret them. In a couple of cases, this is clearly not consistent with what the person who said them intended as a frame of reference when they said it. So please don't personalize anything I say in this composite opinion statement.

I agree with those who say that there is an attitude toward women on this forum. This is, in my opinion, a male-dominated, AS-minded place that is frequently insensitive and misinterpretive of women on many levels. The notions that women have it easy sexually is totally ignorant of the sexual mistreatment and harassment that AS women experience. The fact that sexual misconduct is so widely accepted throughout society means that any relationship or working situation can quickly turn abusive at any time, and too complicated for an AS woman to deal with. Imagine being AS as you are, except with additional targets painted all over you so that people who would otherwise not interfere with you or notice you have irrational reasons for stalking you or undermining you or attacking you. The sexual problems of those AS women who have sexual problems can be far more traumatic than being a chronic virgin, and can rise to traumatic experiences up to and including rape. I have little sympathy for those who use their own sexual deprivation as pretext for belittling those individuals who might come on here asking for help with stalkers or girls who are hounding them. I don't think that sexual deprivation even begins to rise to the level of being on the receiving end of a sociopathic sexual predator's or abusive stalker's attention.

In my opinion, while I understand the excruciating isolation of AS in general and the pain of sexual loss specifically, I think that some people are making entirely too much of how traumatizing their sexual deprivation is when they frame it as an excuse to belittle those who have different sexual problems (like being followed by girls or having been bullied sexually). When one's own alleged trauma becomes so important in one's imagination that it becomes a launching pad for asking that others silence their own posts, I think that one has to re-evaluate the frame of reference used to judge virginity as a trauma. Say that an individual who asks for advice on how to set boundaries against harassers or girls hounding him on campus, but he doesn't get advice because that person's problem is made fun of by jealous virgins, that individual can suffer real trauma later. The rate of sociopathy on campus is 1 in 18, so that vulnerable AS person is surrounded by potential abusers at any given time, whether others on this forum appreciate his problem or not. There is just no excuse for jealousy interfering with his thread, and he is not "gloating", either, even though people accused him of it.

If someone is going to be a "trauma queen" -- demanding that others frame their ideas and statements only after remembering and considering your particular sensitivity -- one should have a real "trauma" on which to base those demands. In my opinion, the general condition of "virginity" is not enough of a "trauma" on which to base demands that others frame their speech and ideas with you in mind. Particularly when the forum is intended for such speech and people come in voluntarily.

In my own frame of reference -- probably not shared by others -- virginity is not a trauma or neurosis or psychologically fragile problem, but a life issue for many people that should be approached by constructive life-issue problem-solving. I.e. with the right problem solving mindset. Moreover, given that the subject matter is sex and love, it should be approached with a soft, respectful attitude, a generous feeling of openness, and an every-ready willingness to find joy and fun in every aspect of the subject. Approaching the problem-solving of one's virginity with an over-rationalized, neurotically upset mentality and dramatic frame of references, will interfere with the personal evolution that growth of one's sexuality entails. Approaching the life issue problem-solving of one's virginity with a harsh, regimented or over-rationalized mind will frustrate the development of a healthy, joyful adult sexuality that is essential for good sex and learning how to connect with other people in moments of desire. Desire and sensuality occurs in moments -- sometimes very fleeting moments -- between people. Like social anxiety kills the happy mood and relaxed personality of someone who is trying too hard to socialize, being neurotic about sexuality and virginity is like salting the earth under one's first attempts to create sexual connections with others.

So the first lesson in how to become a great lover, or even just how to connect with someone else in a moment of desire, is to approach the subject with more humility, respect, joy and open hands than I see some people here displaying.

There was a guy who approached me once as a doctoral student in EE, a virgin, who asked me for sex. He did not have a pretty face at all, had thick glasses, and he had a short, stumpy body. We did things together in the department sometimes and I spent some time over at his house where he taught me how to brew beer -- showed me the apparatus, where he stored it, explained the bottling, sterilization and made a batch. He was a really nice geek, and brought some bottles of his beer into the department and put it in the grad room refrigerator where I could go in there and we could have some. He wasn't associating with me because I was a girl, I think, because I was spending about 80 hours a week in the signal processing lab at that time and this was right up his alley and I was kind of a star student in that particular class (this was shortly before a mentally ill professor started romantically stalking me and threatening me, to create my first sexual trauma, and before I had anxiety attacks, so I could push myself and skip sleep back in those days). Anyways, when he asked me for sex, I agreed, for reasons totally having to do with the sense of him I got in the moment. He had a certain joy in life (he was Australian and was very plucky), and was nice, generous and in the way he asked me I could see his desire. That kind of man will develop into a good lover. So I agreed to have sex with him, knowing he couldn't do much and didn't know much about sex, because of the moment of brave desire and pleasurable, plucky manliness he demonstrated when asking me. If he had been a hardass, neurotically obsessing over sex in a negative way, he wouldn't have had the ability to generate that moment of nice, sweet, plucky desire in the way he did, that appealed to me personally. He had a great, sweet, positive attitude that supported his "appealingness".

So my first advice for problem-solving sexual issues is to not be arrogant, belittling, negative and close-minded about sex, judgmental about others' sexuality, and neurotic over one's sex life, if you have any sexual dysfunction because that will freeze all forward progress. If your attitude is that because of your sexual issue the world is ending or that you have to go blow up a building, that attitude is more of a problem than the underlying sexual issue. One of the first things a sex therapist will do with a client who is in such a state is assign happy-exercises to break up that negative framing and close-mindedness, like fill up a small room with balloons and play in them, or something silly like that.

I think one way to recognize when one is getting into a neurotically negative state is to look at how much you start taking offense at others, and at the degree of rationalization you use to reject advice or belittle others' similar problems. When you start projecting negative motives and absurd memes around to explain what asses the other people are being, and you have to rationalize a lot, that is a good sign that you're kind of off the rails in having the kind of constructive, holistic and joyful mind for sexual problem solving.

I don't know about others on this forum, but I'm an "information spewer". I just spew information, or blurt opinions, when someone raises a question. I have little time or patience to pick apart why they asked a question. If I analyze the kinds of words people use and the references they make, I can eventually come up with a pretty good profile for their frame of reference and how to talk to them, but those careful analysis activities don't come naturally to me. So in a place like this, I will just spew information and I might say, this may or may not have anything to do with your issue. But for anyone to project too much interpersonal egotism or other motives onto me, for example, is to overlook the fact that I'm AS and an information-spewer. Such projections of motives onto my speech are in the imagination of the person so projecting. In my experience, when people start reading manipulative or egotistical motives onto the robotic behavior of AS people, they have some irrational issue of their own.

Sexuality was a "special interest" of mine, and has been one I revisited several times, not just once. I posted earlier on this thread that it's important to have at least one great smile. I can create a whole thread on the role smiles play in seduction, including information about how sociopathic sexual con artists use particular kinds of smiles to accomplish certain things at certain points in their strategy, what kinds of smiles there are in seduction attempts, chemicals in the brain that are triggered by certain kinds of smiles and how they are triggered (either being smiled at or doing the smiling), and how irrational behavior can be induced by smiles. The psychology and neuropsychology of smiling is at the heart not only of seduction, but all socialization, really. That is the kind of information, along with references and keywords, that I would spew if someone asked. Will I frame my ideas for frail male sensitivities? No, I don't really have that capacity or patience to do so. If someone asks me about "smiles" and seduction, I'd spew some 10-paragraph technical answer, with references.

I think that most of the chatter here in this particular forum (Love and Dating) is not so much geared toward actually figuring out how to get laid, or relate to women, but in bonding among males who post here, so the utterances of advice from someone like me, however technical, are less than useful when offered here. I'm too insensitive in my writing to be posting in this "Love and Dating" forum, especially with there being male sensitivities that I clearly ignore. Even in this post, where I am trying to be sensitive, all that is coming out is a wordy mess with convoluted sentences, because I have trouble thinking that way.

Before leaving, I do offer the above advice, though, on how you have to start with the right mind and the right attitude, before beginning a successful problem-solving effort on sexual issues. Starting with the right mind is true whether problem-solving in Math or personal life issues. And having the right mind for problem-solving virginity includes fostering a mentality of interpersonal respect, humility, optimism and being open to moments of joy, information and opportunity when they arise, because when those moments arise, across which you can bridge a very personal gap between yourself and another person using desire, those moments in general are fleeting. A repressive or negative mind-set toward sexual expressions will tend to kill those moments.

Too late; you broke your post up into paragraphs for easy response. Here goes...


I wasn't aware of myself belittling other people, so I'll just assume that you were talking about the OP and not me, though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm perfectly fine with being a virgin. If I were to never have sex in my entire life, so be it. What I am being traumatized by is the lack of any companionship whatsoever. I would give so much just to be in a loving relationship... that's what is traumatic, not the lack of sex.


I wholeheartedly agree with you on that virignity is not a trauma, mentally or psychologically. What is a trauma is the aforementioned lack of companionship whatsoever. It's almost as bad as being abandoned by one's parents, with the exception that as an adult I at least have some life experience underneath that and the ability to be independent economically... Once you know what it's like to be wholly and completley alone in this world (not just sexually but completely), and what it's like to not mean anything to anybody, then you would realize that it's nearly impossible to just take a generous feeling of openess in the subject any longer...


And I would certainly want to learn how to become a great lover, even moreso than being a great... umm... "lover"... I generally approach anyone (regardless of gender) with respect and an open mind unless they give me reason otherwise (like being overly arrogant right off the bat), but it hasn't gotten me anywhere...


Well I certainly don't think the world is ending because of me, but sometimes I wonder if the world will ever accept the fact that I even existed. I haven't started a family yet (the only reason I'm even interested in sex overall, though I'm neutral otherwise), and I don't have anything interesting to offer the world, so sometimes I wonder if I even have a right to exist. If I don't mean anything to anybody, then maybe I should just disappear (not saying kill myself like the OP, but just move to a remote location so that at the very least I'm not in anyone's way...)


If what you say is true, then those moments are far too fleeting for me to even notice, since I never see them. I don't get attracted to women right off the bat... I need to know them for a while before attraction begins to steadily develop over time... I think I have the respect and humility down pat, but it's hard to be an optimist when every time I try to be optimistic, I get shut down real hard...

Sex is not about performing, it's about connecting. People who gloat about being great in bed are just trying to make themselves look good.
Don't let it bother you. If two people care about each other, sex is easy and you can't do anything wrong. I know aspie guys analyze things way to much. Try to relax and be honest with yourself and her and don't be afraid.

No, this was genuinely a composite post, not directed at any one person. I don't think the OP was on that "How do I ward off female followers" thread, and you weren't mean or dismissive on that thread. And when I use the term "trauma queen", I'm a "trauma queen" myself (and I obviously believe in my own trauma because we all believe in the significance of our own traumas). So this was a general, composite post.



Actually charmers in general do the same things that seducers do. The two skills sets -- socializing and seduction -- are not separable, really. That is what makes social anxiety such a big problem in sexual development and vice versa. Even something simple like learning how to have a couple of really great smiles, that are genuine and happy, is an important thing socially as well as for getting a girl. Making friends is kind of about love and acceptance, too.



You're right. I just realized today that I developed some of my basic conversation skills only because I had men in my life from time to time who sat around and listened to me because they were interested in me. Otherwise, I might have never had a conversation longer than a few minutes in my life. And those basic conversation skills have helped me interact with others who weren't my boyfriends better. So a little bit of exposure to social contact does have a snowball effect, whereas total isolation is excruciating and self-perpetuating. So I was lucky to have at least that amount of initial conversational and interpersonal exposure that allowed me to develop at least those talking skills. You're right, those building blocks for communicating obviously have to come first before intimacy develops.

A few years ago, I decided to ramp up my ability to present myself socially to strangers. I took a few small classes in town about small talk and meeting people. I signed up for some fairly anonymous classes like drop-in dance classes. I made a point to go into town for errands and stop at some restaurant bar on the way in and on the way out, to try to "trap" spontaneous opportunities to exchange polite small talk with strangers. I'm serious, I was learning how to do things and then going out and practicing. I think I spent all of one summer on this, and since that time, I do have the ability to exchange words with strangers and have good posture and project confidence when I am alone. When I consciously build social skills, they do tend to stick around for a while, although I seem have to practice them up every once in a while to keep them up. But my point is that I had to develop a learning strategy, develop a strategy to create opportunities to have incidental (small talk) opportunities with strangers, and then studied small talk, social presentation, posture, etc. and spent all of one summer just learning how to appear in public alone and chat.

If I wanted to learn some other social skill, I'd probably have to do the same thing: map out a whole strategy, get the materials and classes together, then create opportunities to practice, etc. And spend at least a whole summer on that learning project.



It's hard to feel up all the time and love yourself and continue to feel confident and open, when you are isolated or been rejected. I'm struggling with this in my professional life, right now, not my personal life. I have a closed mind and negative expectations, that's really killed my ability to perform.



The world doesn't really accept the fact that I exist. But I found that I can be happy without its recognition. Especially after I developed some Theory of Mind, and became able to see what phony losers a lot of people who get recognition are. All the stuff we read in the papers every day about politicians, crooks, etc. is just the regular stuff that goes on in NT world every day. Looking at the Washington Post front page today, there are at least a half dozen articles on prominent people getting busted, disillusioning everyone. There's an historical piece about Richard Nixon, there's an article about the Governor of Illinois, Blagojevich, who tried to auction off Obama's senate seat for money, and so on. At least 50 percent of what goes on in the NT world is a soap opera, an ADHD, shallow, narcissistic stage on which a lot of unreal stuff happens every day. The NT world is like a school where cheating is openly allowed, bullies are not punished and the winner gets the spoils (i.e. "dog eat dog"). It's one thing to get recognition of your existence (which will happen if you're lucky, even if you have AS). But it's another thing to need others to accept and recognize your value. For an AS person, needing recognition from the NT world is like needing love from a drug addict who is caught up in their addiction and hates you anyways.



Well, I was trying to make a point about what an opportunity-killer negativity is. Being able to be self-aware of "fleeting moments of desire" certainly isn't something a young dater tends to be familiar with. (I assume you're a college student).

It's kind of a life skill to learn how to be positive and optimistic in the face of relentless adversity, for AS and NT, both. Probably one of the most important life skills, after learning how to love yourself when others don't. Maybe AS has one order of magnitude of a harder time being optimistic at any given time! So it's not a trivial thing to mention that it's important to stay positive. I shouldn't have made it sound like it was easy.

This is something that I'm struggling with in my academic and professional mind. And have not won much headway against yet. I guess I have a hard time imagining being that affected by relationships and romance, because the social stuff was never that important to me. Not like my studies. I was traumatized by my sense of exclusion and injustice in my career and studies. I suppose others can get traumatized by the same kind of thing when it comes to their social and interpersonal relationships, if those things are important to one. I'd trade my relationships for my studies, any day. And I'd trade places with any of you, any day, to have access to my studies instead of relationships.

And ironically enough... this makes both of your performances better.

I'm gonna stick to responding to the original post before I lose my train of thought.

I'm a noob here. There's been something "wrong" with me my whole life that I'm only beginning to figure out is AS or HFA. I'm 31 and unknowingly having AS/HFA has greatly impacted my sexual relationships.

I'm sorry if you don't want to read about other people's sexual exploits/anecdotes, but being someone who is looking for as much info and support as I can find, I greatly appreciate input from sexually active members of WP. Sexual fetishes and failed relationships are major obsessions of mine. I came here in the first place looking for answers about who I am.

How would you feel if I posted a "Virgins need to stop whining" thread? That would be kinda mean, huh?

Is it an advise you are giving to people who are into relationships or is it mandatory? because you know, they have the right and the freedom to say whatever they please, if they want to 'gloat' about it, they would do it, wether you or anyone else likes it or not, is there something to stop them? no, thankfully, there is no rule on this site to enforce people in relasionships to not "gloat" and to "help" the sad ones.

Besides that, I doubt any advise given here, would be that helpful, considering that most would be based on their personal experience, which would not always work for everyone, because of several reasons, the personalities being different from the one who gives the advise would be one I believe.

So if I was in a succesful relationship I probably would be happy to share it, and if someone finds that offensive, then so be it, bad for them, but not for me, should I care? I don't have and never been in a relationship by the way.

And as I just stated, about being offended by some of the descriptions some do about some aspects of their sex lives, should they care? no, if they don't want to, unless you want to make that a law.

My only advice, harsh as it may sound is this: grow a back bone.

All my life (to this day) I have continued on my search to find a cure for my social life and never once did I say "poor me". Why?

Because I believe in myself and my spectrum.

Why?

Because I am tough, and I am man, and I am also one in many.

You want to try and tell me your problems I am down, but in the end no one on this site and no doctors in your imediate life are going to solve the internal battles that you are going through.

If you have a hard time talking to people you are not alone.

If you think you are alone, you are wrong.

I highly reccamend to all people theater and improv as ways to grow socially.

As for dating...I am still on chapter two so no advice here.

As for sex ... I do not think I personally have ever gloated, however I do make a point to let everyone know I am active and I am trying always to improve myself no matter how difficult.

As one survivor to another, keep up the good fight

-Zane

"I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to go through - Morpheus"


Ok. You're in the Love and Dating thread. And you don't like it? That's fine. But I tend to think (y'all correct me if I'm wrong) that people come here for advice on Love and Dating, which would follow that they're interested in Love...and Dating.

This, despite the fact that Love is one of the most undefinable words of all...until you're in it. Sex is kind of the same way. We can describe it, but a whole Internet full of porn can't show you what it actually feels like.

I don't feel pity for virgins. I was one, once. And hopefully anyone who doesn't want to be that way will eventually find a way to surmount that obstacle. But if you want to stay a virgin, that's cool as well.

As you're working towards a column towards a particular form of sexual orientation (I think), you're eventually going to wind up talking about sex.

Some of us don't gloat, because some of us haven't done anything to gloat about. It's perfectly possible to be a disaster in bed. Issues of closeness, connecting, 'being there' (with or without Chauncy Gardner.., 'giving' emotionally, and holding someone just right after are an issue for some of us (mea maxima culpa...

It's usually part of life. You're a free person, so you can do, or do not. There is a try, though...

Hear, hear.

Thank you

There's nothing more boring and uninteresting than a female aspie with a boyfriend.

All they can talk about is their boyfriend and he comes their obsession, they have no sense of independance and don't have a life of their own.

People are already not very interesting as it is, but for someone to go on about another person is even more boring.

"I can sympathise with people's pains, but not with their pleasures. There is something curiously boring about somebody else's happiness."
-A.H.


As a AS we should understand this quote more than anyone. So yea no one really gives a f**k about your happiness = ) Especially Aspies and other intellectuals, it's just not something to talk about unless asked about.


Also i'd just like to say. Aspie women have it much easier than Aspie guys. You will never understand our world, Aspie males are the truest aspies in the sense. Males are already logical, so just imagine the world that an aspie male lives in.

I have a sex partner but I am not in a relationship, it's my choice really at this point in my life. But anyway, I will say it again women simply have it easier to get sex. All you have to do is open your legs and some guy will accept(not literally).

No questions asked, women can only offer so much advice since they do not know how it really is.

Last edited by TXaspie on 21 Dec 2008, 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I never heard that before. That's pretty funny, and quite possibly true.

I suppose it's never good to take the emotional pain of others for granted, even the pain we inflict on others by boring them or appearing to gloat.

The OP's post must have been valid in at least some of his points, since I plan to do as he asks...

There's something boring about people who assume the universe and people revolve around them....there's something boring about it.

__MissC.