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Women asking guys out?

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sly279
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22 Apr 2018, 2:45 pm

Seraphiel wrote:
So, there's nothing wrong with women asking guys out, and some guys like that the women make the first move. Depends on the person, I would generally tell someone asking this question, just do it. I'm a woman, and I generally will ask guys or girls out that I'm interested in. I tend to like guys that are more shy anyways. Being kind, shy, sensitive, and not being embarrassed about it though, this is the best. I also have a general hatred towards guys that have this obsession with 'manliness' and what society is telling them. I loathe people who can't think for themselves (and even moreso, people that try to be something they aren't). Some people are more assertive, or tend to be more dominant, some more passive or submissive, some in between. The gender doesn't matter really. There is no wrong or right way for a guy or girl to be though, it's stupid that there are people out that saying that something is wrong with someone just because they don't fit their personal taste.


Wish there were a lot more women like you. :cry:



MalchikBrodyaga
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22 Apr 2018, 3:19 pm

I for one would LOVE for a woman to ask me out: in fact I never ask women out myself so the fact that women won't ask me out is what keeps me miserable. I am so jealous when I read about you wanting to ask that guy out. I wish I was in his shoes so that some woman could ask me out!



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22 Apr 2018, 4:30 pm

magz wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.

Are you just telling me that men weight each other's opinion based on physical strength and willingness to physically fight?


No. If I wanted to say something so simple, I wouldn’t have used so many words. But what XFilesGeek said comes closer.
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but I've observed they certainly seem to have a "toughness quota" that you must meet to be taken seriously.


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22 Apr 2018, 4:35 pm

Chronos wrote:
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I think that's the key: if you want them to acknowledge something or do something sensible, be sure to give them a way to make it look like the idea was theirs all along. Never outshine the master and all that.


I disagree. I think a person should advocate for themselves and take credit for that which they have done.


That’s why I said “if you want them to acknowledge something or do something sensible”, and not “if you want credit to be given fairly”.


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MalchikBrodyaga
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22 Apr 2018, 5:00 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.


You mentioned those rites have "physical" nature. What time/country are you talking about? Or is it just a metaphor for something else?



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22 Apr 2018, 7:23 pm

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
I for one would LOVE for a woman to ask me out: in fact I never ask women out myself so the fact that women won't ask me out is what keeps me miserable. I am so jealous when I read about you wanting to ask that guy out. I wish I was in his shoes so that some woman could ask me out!

Now think of the same scenario but gender reversed. What if there was some shy but lonely girl in your neighbourhood who would LOVE for a guy like you to ask her out? If you don't ask her out she'll be alone and so will you.


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Chronos
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22 Apr 2018, 7:37 pm

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.


You mentioned those rites have "physical" nature. What time/country are you talking about? Or is it just a metaphor for something else?


A lot of tribal cultures have initiation ceremonies for males that typically involve some show of bravery or endurance of physical pain. In among one Amazonian tribes, young men must wear mits with stining ants embedded in them during an initiation ceremony.

Stining ant initiation.

In many tribes, circumcision serves as a form of initiation for males and somw tribes in Australia engage in severe penile mutilation as a form of male initiation (some tribes and cultures also do this to females but it usually not an initiation).

There are initiations for females but this often has some relation to menstruation, marriage, or child birth.



MalchikBrodyaga
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23 Apr 2018, 1:18 am

Chronos wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.


You mentioned those rites have "physical" nature. What time/country are you talking about? Or is it just a metaphor for something else?


A lot of tribal cultures have initiation ceremonies for males that typically involve some show of bravery or endurance of physical pain. In among one Amazonian tribes, young men must wear mits with stining ants embedded in them during an initiation ceremony.

Stining ant initiation.

In many tribes, circumcision serves as a form of initiation for males and somw tribes in Australia engage in severe penile mutilation as a form of male initiation (some tribes and cultures also do this to females but it usually not an initiation).

There are initiations for females but this often has some relation to menstruation, marriage, or child birth.


How is it relevant to the today's world then? Are you saying that there are some psychological analogues of that, and even though nobody does anything physical any more there are psychological things they are doing to new males? Or are you saying they are doing physical things today too, I am just unaware of this? Or what is the point you are trying to make?



MalchikBrodyaga
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23 Apr 2018, 1:20 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
I for one would LOVE for a woman to ask me out: in fact I never ask women out myself so the fact that women won't ask me out is what keeps me miserable. I am so jealous when I read about you wanting to ask that guy out. I wish I was in his shoes so that some woman could ask me out!

Now think of the same scenario but gender reversed. What if there was some shy but lonely girl in your neighbourhood who would LOVE for a guy like you to ask her out? If you don't ask her out she'll be alone and so will you.


Well, how would I know who that girl is? There are plenty of shy girls out there, and given that 99% of girls don't like me, I am not about to start a mission of approaching several shy girls to be rejected by 99 of them until I find the one you are talking about. Being rejected by a shy girl who would love to date anyone just not me, would be like a double blow.



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23 Apr 2018, 1:54 am

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Chronos wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.


You mentioned those rites have "physical" nature. What time/country are you talking about? Or is it just a metaphor for something else?


A lot of tribal cultures have initiation ceremonies for males that typically involve some show of bravery or endurance of physical pain. In among one Amazonian tribes, young men must wear mits with stining ants embedded in them during an initiation ceremony.

Stining ant initiation.

In many tribes, circumcision serves as a form of initiation for males and somw tribes in Australia engage in severe penile mutilation as a form of male initiation (some tribes and cultures also do this to females but it usually not an initiation).

There are initiations for females but this often has some relation to menstruation, marriage, or child birth.


How is it relevant to the today's world then? Are you saying that there are some psychological analogues of that, and even though nobody does anything physical any more there are psychological things they are doing to new males? Or are you saying they are doing physical things today too, I am just unaware of this? Or what is the point you are trying to make?


I was speaking very generally. There are plenty of analogues everywhere, some more formal or institutionalized than others. Think of horseplay, bullying and hazing. Street gangs and other criminal organizations usually have full-fledged initiation ceremonies.

What is unusual, and, in my view, dangerous, about modern, arguably overcivilized society is that it allows some isolated, socially awkward male members like me to reach physical and legal adulthood believing those rites are just a barbaric thing of the past we don't need to care about, or even to remain oblivious to their existence.


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MalchikBrodyaga
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23 Apr 2018, 2:03 am

Spiderpig wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Chronos wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.


You mentioned those rites have "physical" nature. What time/country are you talking about? Or is it just a metaphor for something else?


A lot of tribal cultures have initiation ceremonies for males that typically involve some show of bravery or endurance of physical pain. In among one Amazonian tribes, young men must wear mits with stining ants embedded in them during an initiation ceremony.

Stining ant initiation.

In many tribes, circumcision serves as a form of initiation for males and somw tribes in Australia engage in severe penile mutilation as a form of male initiation (some tribes and cultures also do this to females but it usually not an initiation).

There are initiations for females but this often has some relation to menstruation, marriage, or child birth.


How is it relevant to the today's world then? Are you saying that there are some psychological analogues of that, and even though nobody does anything physical any more there are psychological things they are doing to new males? Or are you saying they are doing physical things today too, I am just unaware of this? Or what is the point you are trying to make?


I was speaking very generally. There are plenty of analogues everywhere, some more formal or institutionalized than others. Think of horseplay, bullying and hazing. Street gangs and other criminal organizations usually have full-fledged initiation ceremonies.

What is unusual, and, in my view, dangerous, about modern, arguably overcivilized society is that it allows some isolated, socially awkward male members like me to reach physical and legal adulthood believing those rites are just a barbaric thing of the past we don't need to care about, or even to remain oblivious to their existence.


Well, I am not associating with gangs; I am associating with people at the university. So do you think people at the university ignore me because I didn't pass their version of initiation ceremony? If so, what kind of initiation ceremony was I supposed to pass? Remember, we are talking about university people.



Seraphiel
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23 Apr 2018, 2:23 am

Spiderpig wrote:
magz wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.

Are you just telling me that men weight each other's opinion based on physical strength and willingness to physically fight?


No. If I wanted to say something so simple, I wouldn’t have used so many words. But what XFilesGeek said comes closer.
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but I've observed they certainly seem to have a "toughness quota" that you must meet to be taken seriously.


The whole toughness thing,just makes guys look like idiots in the end. Guys that are actually comfortable with themselves, generally don't feel the need to prove anything. They just know. Everyone else is just dumb enough to try and keep up appearances, because they have the mentality which is either too concerned about other people's opinions, or they believe what everyone says and follow it. This is probably what separates boys from actual men. That being said, it's like these people are living in the past. There are all different kinds of people in the world, not all men have to be 'tough'. Every type of person has something different to offer, people obsessed with the whole toughness thing, I doubt they have anything to offer but their ego.



MalchikBrodyaga
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23 Apr 2018, 2:33 am

Seraphiel wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
magz wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.

Are you just telling me that men weight each other's opinion based on physical strength and willingness to physically fight?


No. If I wanted to say something so simple, I wouldn’t have used so many words. But what XFilesGeek said comes closer.
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but I've observed they certainly seem to have a "toughness quota" that you must meet to be taken seriously.


The whole toughness thing,just makes guys look like idiots in the end. Guys that are actually comfortable with themselves, generally don't feel the need to prove anything. They just know. Everyone else is just dumb enough to try and keep up appearances, because they have the mentality which is either too concerned about other people's opinions, or they believe what everyone says and follow it. This is probably what separates boys from actual men. That being said, it's like these people are living in the past. There are all different kinds of people in the world, not all men have to be 'tough'. Every type of person has something different to offer, people obsessed with the whole toughness thing, I doubt they have anything to offer but their ego.


I totally agree. I am also confused as to why women fall for tough guys, I mean being tough seems the opposite to the tender feelings of love. Me personally, one thing that makes me really connect with a woman is the feeling that I can tell her anything, be weak and vulnerable, and she will take care of me. I realize that traditionally its the girls that are supposed to feel that way, and the guys are supposed to be tough, but I think both parties should feel this way irrespective of gender. In fact, I don't think gender roles should be followed altogether. I mean, if two people love each other as individuals, why even follow some roles that society tells them about?



PurplePlumz
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23 Apr 2018, 2:43 am

I don't really think there's much wrong with girls asking guys out, but that might just be my ignorance talking from being aromantic.



sly279
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23 Apr 2018, 6:21 pm

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Seraphiel wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
magz wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Men who fail to prove their manliness by going through whatever initiation rites the group deems appropriate to earn its respect have their opinions systematically dismissed, too. In fact, not forcing the same rites on women, who would often be ill-suited to endure their rough physical nature, is a matter of chivalry. In exchange, women are denied the chance to have their opinions considered seriously.

At the end of the day, the respect any opinion gets is conditional on your willingness and readiness to accept a challenge to a physical fight from any man who doesn't like it.

Are you just telling me that men weight each other's opinion based on physical strength and willingness to physically fight?


No. If I wanted to say something so simple, I wouldn’t have used so many words. But what XFilesGeek said comes closer.
XFilesGeek wrote:
No, but I've observed they certainly seem to have a "toughness quota" that you must meet to be taken seriously.


The whole toughness thing,just makes guys look like idiots in the end. Guys that are actually comfortable with themselves, generally don't feel the need to prove anything. They just know. Everyone else is just dumb enough to try and keep up appearances, because they have the mentality which is either too concerned about other people's opinions, or they believe what everyone says and follow it. This is probably what separates boys from actual men. That being said, it's like these people are living in the past. There are all different kinds of people in the world, not all men have to be 'tough'. Every type of person has something different to offer, people obsessed with the whole toughness thing, I doubt they have anything to offer but their ego.


I totally agree. I am also confused as to why women fall for tough guys, I mean being tough seems the opposite to the tender feelings of love. Me personally, one thing that makes me really connect with a woman is the feeling that I can tell her anything, be weak and vulnerable, and she will take care of me. I realize that traditionally its the girls that are supposed to feel that way, and the guys are supposed to be tough, but I think both parties should feel this way irrespective of gender. In fact, I don't think gender roles should be followed altogether. I mean, if two people love each other as individuals, why even follow some roles that society tells them about?


Unfortunately when it comes to male gender roles society is very very very conservative.
Weak men are seen as real men. Gues it’s cause we men have to be prepared to fend off a sabertooth tiger when it comes back from extinction :roll:



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23 Apr 2018, 6:51 pm

Toughness? Meh...

I often tell the story of how I stole my wife from a frat brother. He was a dude with multiple black belts in karate and I’d personally seen him take down guys over twice his size. So when he said he was going to kill me, I believed him. But I didnt move until the gf assured me she would be ok. After all, I figured her life was worth more than mine and if he hurt me and went to prison, at least it got him away from her.

Nothing he did after that made him look any better to her, so within weeks (days?) they were permanently broken up. Everything he did just made him look more of an @$$.

So either toughness is overrated, or there are many ways of displaying toughness, including more cerebral tactics than physical overwhelming.

I am working on the physical bit to reach certain goals. So it really is a choice whether this is something you want to work on.