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More Thought on Incels.

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hurtloam
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21 Aug 2021, 1:27 am

cyberdad wrote:
Again this discussion is going in circles.

Regardless of whether we are talking about Aspies, NTs or incels, all people should first develop solid friendships and relationships before pursuing sex.

The problem with incels is they watch their friends hookup and misattribute their friend's sexual success to the girls throwing themselves at any man except them. Believe me, I went through this phase as a 20 yr old christian. it's like there is something wrong with the world, its unfair. It took me 10 years to work out the problem was with me, not with the girls.

A good example is the two Canadian boys Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky who ended up being incel killers. They were not only good looking but according to classmates were popular and friends. They appeared (on the surface) to be quite normal. What nobody figured out is they were sexually frustrated. Probably they were both shy around girls. I imagine it must have galled them seeing guys who were not as good looking as them having great success dating. But that's not the girl's fault,

It's a pity a lot of these incels couldn't get a little bit of simple advice before going down the rabbit hole of 8chan and 4chan where they enter an echo chamber of angry young men who hate women. I remember saying things myself about girls when I was in my 20s that was totally irrational based on my personal frustrations. I was a good looking dude so how come none of these women want to talk to me?.

The trick is identifying these signs early in these boys when they are frustrated teens and working on their social skills and mental frameworks.


Excellent post.

As a woman with females friends, yes we might be attracted to this quite handsome young man, but he won't talk to us, so we give up. He seems aloof and we assume he thinks he's too good for us.

Reminds me of someone I knew in my early 20s. Never could understand why he was perpetually single. I liked him. I invited him to things. I asked him to help me with things. I talked to him. I used to text him a lot. I should have just directly asked him out. I was talking to a mutual friend recently and he had a reputation of not knowing what to do with girls and being awkward. He's married to someone now who my friend told me was outgoing and made the first move. "He needed someone direct like that" she said.

So these guys could have interest and they totally oblivious.



cyberdad
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21 Aug 2021, 1:30 am

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
they were not given good modeling of proper adult behavior. they were left to fend for themselves.


Yes, its a delicate thing and perhaps not having mentoring from peers and/or lacking confidence in themselves.

I still remember walking up to a girl and saying hello was more scary than giving a presentation on a school project in front of 30 classmates and a teacher.


I've always found this strange, when guys act like this. I know a guy who is a really good martial artist, and can probably take on three guys in a fight. But he completely freezes when it comes to picking up women. But how are women more scary than guys attacking you...


So for me it was a case of late maturation. By my late 20s and early 30s I had the opposite problem, Too many women. But there was a catch. Most of them friendzoned me. I must have lacked sexual experience and it came off with the vibes I gave off. The other thing by that age I wanted a wife not a fubu or girlfriend (blame my christian upbringing). A few girls did want to sleep with me and I only took partial advantage (up to second base), Only one girl I did want to sleep with had too many options already and played me along because she liked me but didn't want me tasting the goods.



ironpony
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21 Aug 2021, 1:34 am

hurtloam wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Again this discussion is going in circles.

Regardless of whether we are talking about Aspies, NTs or incels, all people should first develop solid friendships and relationships before pursuing sex.

The problem with incels is they watch their friends hookup and misattribute their friend's sexual success to the girls throwing themselves at any man except them. Believe me, I went through this phase as a 20 yr old christian. it's like there is something wrong with the world, its unfair. It took me 10 years to work out the problem was with me, not with the girls.

A good example is the two Canadian boys Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky who ended up being incel killers. They were not only good looking but according to classmates were popular and friends. They appeared (on the surface) to be quite normal. What nobody figured out is they were sexually frustrated. Probably they were both shy around girls. I imagine it must have galled them seeing guys who were not as good looking as them having great success dating. But that's not the girl's fault,

It's a pity a lot of these incels couldn't get a little bit of simple advice before going down the rabbit hole of 8chan and 4chan where they enter an echo chamber of angry young men who hate women. I remember saying things myself about girls when I was in my 20s that was totally irrational based on my personal frustrations. I was a good looking dude so how come none of these women want to talk to me?.

The trick is identifying these signs early in these boys when they are frustrated teens and working on their social skills and mental frameworks.


Excellent post.

As a woman with females friends, yes we might be attracted to this quite handsome young man, but he won't talk to us, so we give up. He seems aloof and we assume he thinks he's too good for us.

Reminds me of someone I knew in my early 20s. Never could understand why he was perpetually single. I liked him. I invited him to things. I asked him to help me with things. I talked to him. I used to text him a lot. I should have just directly asked him out. I was talking to a mutual friend recently and he had a reputation of not knowing what to do with girls and being awkward. He's married to someone now who my friend told me was outgoing and made the first move. "He needed someone direct like that" she said.

So these guys could have interest and they totally oblivious.


But when it comes to cyberdad's quote:

"Regardless of whether we are talking about Aspies, NTs or incels, all people should first develop solid friendships and relationships before pursuing sex."

What I don't understand about this quote is, is cyberdad saying to build romantic relationships before sex, or non-romantic?



cyberdad
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21 Aug 2021, 1:35 am

hurtloam wrote:
Reminds me of someone I knew in my early 20s. Never could understand why he was perpetually single. I liked him. I invited him to things. I asked him to help me with things. I talked to him. I used to text him a lot. I should have just directly asked him out. I was talking to a mutual friend recently and he had a reputation of not knowing what to do with girls and being awkward. He's married to someone now who my friend told me was outgoing and made the first move. "He needed someone direct like that" she said.


Yeah that sounds like me at the beginning, everything clicked for me when I hit 30. By that age I was pulling chicks. But I was literally like that fisherman who reels in lots of fish but then throws them back in the sea.

I had no idea what I wanted at that time? I was only glad I was decent enough not to sexually use the women I knew.



cyberdad
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21 Aug 2021, 1:40 am

ironpony wrote:
What I don't understand about this quote is, is cyberdad saying to build romantic relationships before sex, or non-romantic?


It's pretty simple ironpony. "Friendship first". I think the healthiest relationships start non-romantic and develop organically into romantic relationships. Once it becomes romantic then the couple can take the next step if they want. Even though there should be no pressure for sex unless both parties are 100% comfortable.

I would never persuade or coerce a girl into sex by manipulation. For one thing I wouldn't enjoy the experience if the girl just lay there not getting into it because she thought that's what I wanted.



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21 Aug 2021, 1:43 am

Oh yes you don't want to manipulate a person into sex, I can understand that. However, I feel that based on my experience, the whole friendship first is entirely unrealistic, because once you are friendzoned, you are friendzoned, and women are no longer interested in you beyond friendship after that, or it is very rare. You have to start off with a romantic interest right away in the real world, based on my experience.



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21 Aug 2021, 1:45 am

ironpony wrote:
They can hurt you later and badly for sure, but when it comes to approaching women and asking you out, they seem to be harmless in that phase, and even for a first few dates, unless I am wrong?

your luck has been better than mine.



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21 Aug 2021, 1:46 am

I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps I misunderstand what is harmless to you. If women can hurt you right away in the beginning, what counts as being hurt in your experience?



cyberdad
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21 Aug 2021, 1:57 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes you don't want to manipulate a person into sex, I can understand that. However, I feel that based on my experience, the whole friendship first is entirely unrealistic, because once you are friendzoned, you are friendzoned, and women are no longer interested in you beyond friendship after that, or it is very rare. You have to start off with a romantic interest right away in the real world, based on my experience.


Sorry I am probably coming across preachy (I do forget myself).

Yes there are times when one party develops love/lust for the other party and their counterpart doesn't reciprocate. So yes its not a solution for everything. The mature thing to do there is to let the person remain a friend and not push.



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21 Aug 2021, 2:00 am

Oh okay. But what I mean is, if most women do not like dating guys they have friendzoned, then wouldn't it be more logical for guys to persue women with romantic persuing from the beginning rather than go after women who have already friendzoned them?



cyberdad
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21 Aug 2021, 2:09 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. But what I mean is, if most women do not like dating guys they have friendzoned, then wouldn't it be more logical for guys to persue women with romantic persuing from the beginning rather than go after women who have already friendzoned them?


I think what's missing in my earlier explanation is mutual attraction must be there that both parties compartmentalise until they are comfortable to go to the next step. For men that happens much earlier in the relationship, whereas women normally want to wait a little longer before they are sure.

But in this age of tinder hookups are fairly normal (I've see a few male and female Aspies claiming they have one night stands like NTs).



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21 Aug 2021, 2:22 am

Oh okay, in my experience, the attraction in women seems to happen very early on though, but that's just my experience.

But I think another thing is are guys just afraid of rejectiont too much? For example, a friend of mine said she was stunned when I told her that only 30 percent of the women I persued said yes, and that's at the most. She said how do I deal with that 70 percent at least, of rejection.

But I mean can't other guys just let it roll of their back and not make a big deal out of it, if one of the reasons guys do not do as much persuing is they are afraid of that rejection?



Last edited by ironpony on 21 Aug 2021, 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

Nades
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21 Aug 2021, 2:38 am

On the subject of sex, I think an aspie should always aim for sex with a woman their interested in to show the interest is more than friends. As people get older they turn into very complex people, much more so than when they were in their early 20s.

It's going to take ages to find out if you really click with such people as there are a lot of layers of paint to peek back and sex before you really find out if you click isn't really anything to feel guilty about. It just happens when baggage is on over the years and nothing can be done to avoid it.



ironpony
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21 Aug 2021, 2:39 am

Another reason why I thought it would be good for incel men to get sex before dating is, is that women hate the idea of guys that are virgins, and I mean they really hate it. Sorry, I know it's not what a lot of guys want to hear, but it's true. They hate it.

So if incel men were to at least get sex first, before trying relationships, they would then have at least some ammunition with women, because that would be one less thing that they do not have to worry about women being turned off by.



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21 Aug 2021, 2:48 am

ironpony wrote:
Another reason why I thought it would be good for incel men to get sex before dating is, is that women hate the idea of guys that are virgins, and I mean they really hate it. Sorry, I know it's not what a lot of guys want to hear, but it's true. They hate it.

So if incel men were to at least get sex first, before trying relationships, they would then have at least some ammunition with women, because that would be one less thing that they do not have to worry about women being turned off by.


Agreed. When people become older virgins it becomes impossible for them to hide their fear in a bedroom. Having a panic attack at the prospect of clothes being removed will put anyone off, man or woman.



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21 Aug 2021, 2:54 am

That's true and perhaps loosing their virginity before a relationship will not only be more attractive to the woman, but also give them confidence as well, so they do not have a panic attack of course.