Philosophically, why should men make the first move?

Post Reply New Topic

There is an evolutionary rationale and you figured it out so I bolded it.

In evolutionary terms, a man who gets a woman pregnant hasn't made any commitment at all. There is no reason for him to be picky and every reason for him not to be, if he wants to get his DNA in the evolutionary game. Conversely, a woman who gets pregnant has automatically made a commitment measured in decades. It makes evolutionary sense for her to be very picky since there is a low physical ceiling on how many children she can bear and raise. It isn't physically possible for her to fling her DNA all over the place so she must be very careful what she does with it.

A woman who asks a man out is, in evolutionary terms, saying "I am perfectly willing to bear and raise your child" (in evolutionary terms only, I'm just explaining the evolutionary rationale". A woman who merely accepts an invitation is, in evolutionary terms, saying "I may or may not be willing to bear and raise your child, I'll think about it".

No man, no. Those are all superficial reasons. Women aren't attracted to you, so you naturally assume that the flaws you percieve in your life or your person are responsible.

And also, aspies are overtly concerned about stepping on other people's toes or taking advantage of people, so you may think you aren't worthy enough to be in a relationship. Stop that right now. If a trailer-trash jobeless redneck in a dirty tanktop can date a babe, you can too.

No. It is your personality. Your body language. The eye contact. Your social and verbal skills.

I'm extremely lucky to have a highly marketable skill (IT) and I've made a nice living out of it. Top floor apartment, expensive furniture, nice things, wall art, a chick-magnet car. I'm good looking and I compete in triathlons so I'm in great shape.

I still can't get past a first date, or even get a woman to talk to me unless I'm acting. Yes acting.

There's something about aspies that makes male NTs hostile toward us, and female NTs "creeped out", whatever that means. That's the barrier you must overcome. Use your talents: read those dating self help books, read about human psychology. Use your intelect to figure this out. What you should NOT do, is keep making the same fruitless efforts and the same mistakes over and over again. You are 26? If you keep going down this path you'll be 46 before you know it, and still you'll be single.

I never approach because I'm afraid the guy has a girlfriend and she'll get mad.

I don't approach women unless I somehow find out they are single. Oh boy.

Most guys aren't like that though. They will initiate a full cavalry charge whenever something cute in a skirt enters the room.

Wouldn't be more evolutionary rational for the female to pick her own male by asking him out? That would be way easier than to just wait for the right male to come.

Last edited by LePetitPrince on 08 Sep 2009, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

That's exactly what I do and it works out real well. I do the choosing, I do the asking and I get what I want.

Woman are total fools not to get in on this.

You're right, it's evolutionary illogical to do otherwise. Like Janissy said, female's investment in breeding is way harder and costly than the male, so it would better for the female to pick the male who might be a good genetic/resources provider.

in animal world, it's usually the female does the picking , 2 lions fight and the lioness picks the winner , female bonobos do sex with almost everyone around but would more likely do it first with the strongest male.

The "man must ask ou the woman" doesn't sound evolutionary logical at all , I believe that was imposed by the artificial monogamy system (marriage) which was created after the transformation of the human society (from matriarchal to patriarchal system) in order to shift the picking power from females to males.

However , the tide has turned again against men lately , arranged marriages is no longer the norm (when the woman had little right to reject if any) and was gradually replaced by the serial monogamous dating system with which the woman has the power to reject any man asking her out. So at the end, the woman regained the picking power and without even facing the psychological impacts of rejections , it's a win-win position despite the fact that the extreme monogamy is still imposed by religion and law which limits the choice of a best suitable biological father (cheating might be the solution for this tho).

But still, this process is way slower than if she takes the initiative in asking out.

One day I will an Internet post for men entitled, "How to gracefully accept a date from a woman and not screw it up."

Good point, LPP. I think we are in a very fluid time. Nothing is written in stone. Not that it ever was, but I think more people used to have the illusion that the set-up of their particular society was eternal. In any case, even making evolutionary arguments for particular behaviour, people are not bound by what works best for reproductive success. We have instinct, yes. But a lot of free will is mixed in with it. So you may look at something and say "from an evolutionary point of view, that's a ridiculous thing to do" and you may be right, but using free will to override instinct is what our species is all about.

Rule 1) Do not assume that that the fact she asked you out means you will be having sex with her in the near future.

For the record, back in the day (WAAAAAAAAYYYY back in the day) I often didn't ask a man out even if I would have liked to because I worried that he would assume that me doing the asking implied that the date would end in bed. This assumption was based on a couple bad experiences and the cumulative bad experiences of friends.

Last edited by Janissy on 08 Sep 2009, 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe there's a possible way to test this idea? Earlier I mentioned that studies find women who ask are seen as more sexually available, and thus many men say they enjoy being asked out. We also know women are out of it longer if they get pregnant, so they have to be more careful about getting someone who'll stick around. Also there's research that women have a lot of influence over who actually asks them on a date by using their body language on men. (I need to study these signals since I'm a guy)

I had an idea that women don't do the asking to set the mindset of the man, as being seen as not sexually available so quickly, and making sure it's someone who'll stick around rather than short term fling?

So as a way to test this idea, if there's a way to see if women who do the asking are in longer or shorter relationships with the men they ask? Although it can't prove the idea true, because correlation doesn't mean causation, it is a possible way to rule out the idea, thus making it testable in a falsifiable way. If when women ask it tends to result in longer term relationships with these certain "dates" compared to when the men do the asking, then you'd know my idea maybe isn't correct, or not consistent with the evidence. However, if when women ask it results in shorter term, although it doesn't mean it's true, at the very least it would be consistent with the evidence, and thus more studies from other angles could be conducted.

You are on the right track, that would be Rule #1, but I would expand on it.

Rule 1) Do not assume that that the fact she asked you out means you will be having sex with her in the near future. And even if she does have sex with you do not assume you will be asked on a second date, do not assume she will be your girlfriend, do not assume she even likes you. Do not assume you need to do absolutely nothing to move the relationship along. Do not brag to your friends that you are completely in control this woman is at your beck and call, because, most assuredly she is not.

As much as I want it to be this way, it just doesn't work. All I've found this expectation to do is place nearly complete value on social status. The men who are charismatic & very visible get lots of offers while other guys, with many good qualities too but happening to be quiet get passed over.

I'm not satisfied losing to all the loudmouths, so I force myself to make the first move. You have to get on the radar somehow.

Well I shouldn't have any problems with that then... unless proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to the contrary, I assume the opposite...

Yep, you are on the right track. Don't assume anything.

You do know, don't you, that some animals mate with the same partner for life?