what women want

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Mostly except for one thing. How do you know these were NT men? Did you ask them? I know people with mental disorders that don't mention their problems or will just outright lie about them, so they don't scare off people. That guy you mentioned sounds like he has some kind of issues, because most of the people I know Nt/aspie/other would have the common sense to go to the Aboriginies themselves for information about their cultures. Then again maybe those white guys have been studying Aborigines for years or could be part aboriginal, and might have an idea about what they're talking about. My best friend is part cuban and has pale skin and red hair. I love it when people do a double take when she tells them her obviously hispanic last name.

Yes, you're wrong so far. You've got no evidence to back up your points. It's NOT just one woman. I posted just one of many stories I know of that involves young women being murdered or otherwise abused by boyfriends, from just the city I live in alone. It's not even just a news story - I knew about the details of the court case before it made the media because of connections I have with the victim's family. I also know a number of girls that experience emotional abuse. I make such a generalization because there are many, many girls I know that are in unhealthy relationships in one form or another. Murderers are the minority, but abusive relationships are rampant in society across North America. Ironically, there was just a report about relationship abuse on Global National (the national newscast on Canada's Global Television Network) that said that so far this year, there have been 12 women murdered in Ontario alone (population of about 10 million) by their partners. One was a 19-year-old girl pushed off her balcony, I think in Toronto, by her ex. Twelve is far too many. And you can't deny that number.

And, not once have I ever said that it is never the guy's fault. I have said over and over, and people like you just cannot get it, that women sometimes make poor decisions and could have made a better decision about which guy to date. That does not relieve the responsibility of the abusers. I believe anyone who is abusive should be thrown in prison, and those who murder should get the death penality. I've said that before, but I guess some people like to pick and choose what they see. How do you, Sorce, expect this trend to be stopped? It is very important to stop these relationships before they start. I see women complaining all the time about all the horrible characteristics about their boyfriends, but they rarely do anything about it. Abuse is only going to go down so far unless certain women start taking responsibility for themselves and stop being the wimps that our societies have been teaching them to be for centuries. One guy I know is the champion of womens rights (he is as pro-choice as a man can get) and he agrees with me. He has taught his daughters to stand up for themselves and not go for crummy guys.

Your comments offend me, and like certain members that have come before you (we all know who they are, and at least one of them got banned), you have offered no constructive evidence to refute my points and have just taken the opportunity to argue for the sake of arguing. It also indicates that you're not interested in reducing violence against women, which is also offensive. Let's see some hard statistics from a credible source that show that we shouldn't help women to avoid getting into abusive relationships. I challenge you.

Last edited by ELLCIM on 01 Jun 2006, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When you write a constructive post, I'll give you a constructive response. I'm offended by nearly everything you write. If you can't figure out that some women don't like it when strange men come up behind them and start touching their shoulders, why should I take your concern about women's safety seriously? Or comments like this one? "The question is, how does one seduce a woman without hitting her or touching her breasts?" So no, you're not getting an apology.

I don't care if you're offended. Show me some stats. I've been building up constructive points over the past six months, with statistics and other credible sources. I don't make this stuff up. It is true that women don't seek abuse, but they generally seek the kinds of guys that have abusive tendencies. I am very proud of one girl friend of mine who finally cut off her boyfriend of almost two years when she matured and finally figured out that his violence against others and various property crimes were eventually going to put her in danger, and she got out of the relationship.

I am here for an intelligent discussion, not extreme feminist man-bashing, which is all you're interested in. This forum is not to be used to achieve such political ends - it is for intelligent discussion and debate. You know, some women (not just one that I know) agree with me, including a professional at my university involved in social work. You're just like Serissa and Mockingbird - all you do is bash me at a personal level without offering any intelligent discussion. I trust you were never on the debate team in high school.

I also believe that having Asperger's gives one credibility on this subject, because they're not clouded by all the contradictory NT crap that leads to all the lies and such in all facets of life. What kinds of lies? Stuff like that women don't want to be seduced. I have not attempted to seduce a woman, and I have had zero success. I have seen more confident guys seduce a woman they have just met, and they are in a relationship - sometimes even a healthy one - instantly. Women secretly want to be seduced, but that is a power card that they don't want us men to know about. (By seduction I don't mean necessarily getting into their pants - I mean just getting them to want to be with you.)

I challenge you to show me some constructive points. Answer the following three questions and I'll shut up. The third one is one that I asked Serissa but she refused to answer it.

1. How can women avoid being abused? And the answer is not just to sit back and let it happen because it's all the man's fault, which is what I know you're thinking. Anyone who would think that is technically advocating abuse. What offends me is that you're offering nothing to show how the 12 women murdered in Ontario over the past five months could have been prevented in the first place. You're saying that women shouldn't protect themselves. Now that is offensive.

2. How are men and women supposed to fall in love if there is no seduction involved? Then again, true, extreme feminists don't believe in marriage and child-bearing.

3. Do you leave your doors unlocked at night? If so, then don't cry to me when your DVD collection vanishes one night.

You're dealing with someone with university-level philosophy education at one of the best universities in North America though, so be prepared.

And, where is GroovyDruid right now?

I never liked men who played games.......and last time I checked, I was female. Don't hang out with females who play games, there are plenty out there who don't. But then again if thats some mens attitude then that would explain why women aren't interested.

ELLCIM, your accusation that Sorce is not interested in women's rights simply because he doesn't agree with you is out of line; this is a discussion board, where people discuss things. If you can't handle people disagreeing with your opinion without getting personal, then maybe you should express your opinions elsewhere.

And for all your rhetoric about wanting to protect women's rights, you seem to have a very misogynistic and somewhat fascist attitude. So you've had some bad experiences with women? Then maybe you need to look at yourself, rather than accusing 80% of the female population of being vacuous airheads, and calling women who get beaten wimps who can't take responsibility for their actions.

I hope you don't take this personally because it's not meant as a personal attack, but I think you need to go out and actually meet some women, in person. It's all very well for you to analyse the situation from an academic standpoint, but you need to develop a basic understanding of human nature before you can start making grand theories on violence against women.

Since you're determined to have people answer your questions, I thought I'd take up your offer. But first, this:

I don't remember that being in the diagnostic criteria... and since when do you know so much about people with AS? How many Aspies do you know? And how does one assess the truth of this?



And this is all based on hard, empirical evidence? How do you know they just don't want to feel loved? Have you ever made a person feel loved? You don't need to seduce a person to do that.



You're blaming the victim. That's like saying women who get raped ask for it. You expect women to share the responsibility for being beaten, like they sometimes are for being raped? That'd take the women's movement back two decades, when women were often considered to be partially responsible for being raped because they 'dressed for sex'.



What are you asking here? You're saying you don't believe in marriage and child-bearing? Please clarify.



What does this have to do with anything? We're not talking about dvd collections, are we? We're talking about people. Let's avoid making pointless analogies here. Dvds don't have needs like people do, however determined you are to deny the needs of others.

Women, like people in general, have the right to a relationship that's free from the threat of abuse. That's the partner's responsibility, not theirs'. Like I said before, you don't tell women to stop wearing clothes they think are sexually appealing just to stop rapists. And you don't blame the women for being raped if she does wear such clothes. You blame the rapist. Same goes here; if women are being assaulted then you mainly focus on stopping abusers. You can have women take preventative measures but you can't deny their needs and infringe on their rights in order to do that.



30-40% of people in Western society have university-level education. Some of these are women, right? Then why aren't they coming up with what you are saying? Do you really believe women are stupid and that none of them know what's best for them, and you do? Besides, university education is nothing special.

Since you mentioned it first, why don't you give some credible evidence for things that you're saying rather than putting people down and claiming power and status over other posters here? Then again, according to you Aspies are above all that power and status stuff that NTs go on about so much.

Screw what femminists scream about, EVERY NT girl I've met sais they don't play games and yet that's all they do is play games... They whine about not having a man who can respect them but they keep going for losers who treat them like dogs... Most don't wanna be respected. And Most aspie girls are usually taken by NT men.. You see this is the deal here:
Women, aspie or NT, if they look remotely attractive they have a buffett to choose from... Because the man has to do ALL the courting rituals, as men it is our duty to impress the female, the female just has to say yes or no. That simple for them, make a judgement call. I know this is gonna arrouse alot of angry females but deep down you know I'm telling the truth. You might argue that "yeah but we hafta give the men something to wanna go for"... Well if your remotely attractive men will ask you out reguardless. Even if your not attractive some guy somewhere at a bar or club will still ask you out, even if out of nothing more than desperation. I'm not saying that it isn't hard for women to find Mr. Right, but it's easy for a woman to find Mr. Right Now. The whole courting ritual caters to you. This is why men have looser standards then women. Honestly, go to your local aspie groups and see how many women have boyfriends or husbands and then look at the guys and see how many have girlfriends or wives, then do the math.

I'm not saying there aren't good women out there but it's definately hard to find one... Honestly I think I'm with ellcim in that I'd prefer an aspie girl, as in general aspies are more honest than most NT's, and are more open minded... Plus I don't hafta explain autism to the full and yet keep getting questions because no matter how much I explain it, they don't grasp it... This has happened on several occassions. Or they pretend to have somewhat of an understanding when they clearly don't. Which leads to alot of unfair games being played.
Now, see this is why I call myself a free thinker, (using liberal and conservative as sociological and not political terminology) I'm not some nazi bush supporter advocating a theocratic rule over everyone and everything, but neither am I some doormat lib who strays from calling the cards where they fall for fear of being called "politically incorrect" either, be it socially, politically, whatever.

And just to proove I'm not being one sided, I also think that it's stupid that if a man gets alot of play he's idolized and treated like a hero but if a woman gets alot of play she's revered as a slut. I think males and females should play by the same rules.

Women don't work on logic, they work on emotion and social status. Men and women work on evolutionary drives, every persons biological goals in life is to survive and replicate. The fact is aspie guys do not possess alpha male characteristics, most of them are cowardly p*****s and/or incompetent socially, and many are not good providers, have trouble maintaining a job and this gets them further and further ostracized. The fact is many aspies are losers and don't realize what it is that makes them a loser.

-Self neglect
-Poor grooming and/or fashion sense
-Shyness
-Fear of people
-Fear of social interaction
-Anxiety about social interaction

The typical story goes like this:

-Aspie child has rough childhood
-In school or highschool/college, depression and suicide are constant companions, starts a cycle of serious depression or anxiety
-Aspie may make it into real world, but has incredibly difficult time forming and maintaining romantic relationships
-Many aspies hit rock bottom and start dangerous self-destructive behaviours, they either 1) become shut ins that live with their parents or 2) if they have just enough wherewithall they plunge into drugs/drinking.

Aspie guys fearing rejection, they are desperate nice guys who can't get sex, or if the can, they get extremely anxious.... they try to approach girls but what they don't understand is that:

Women get approached ALL the time, and they hear "hi what's your name?" or "hi, nice shoes." or whatever thousands of times over the years and their lifetime. Women are hit on constantly, this fact is lost on a lot of guys, not just aspies and thats why women act like "b*****s", women aren't b*****s most of them, its just that they develop strategies to effectively deal with being hit on all the time because the don't have all the time in the world to speak to every guy, so if you dont come in interesting or socially competent or looking cool or attractive, and being different... rejection!

Notice that many of the more extreme aspie guys were not good looking or severely socially ret*d growing up, so they got totally excluded from most social interaction, parties, dances, etc, or if they were outgoing and fearless were totally oblivious how to regulate social interaction.

The fact is aspies have such a difficult time at socialization and becoming effectively socialized, that they their social skills either do not exist or are frozen in time in a prior developmental stage and this causes the aspie extreme anxiety and depression, since one who is competent in their ability to socialize is also confident, and therefore nowhere near as anxious as an aspie.

Although the 'women work on emotion and not logic' statement I don't agree with wholeheartedly, the rest of your post seems to get much closer to the bottom of the issue. Women are not going to change as a collective whole just for us, so all this talk of getting women to clean up their act, so to speak, is ridiculous.

I have to say something. What do girls really want? I'm still having a hard time finding out.

What do you mean by "playing games"?

If it is what I think it is, I play games, I have no idea why, I try not to, but.. meh.

Excellent.



You're right that it is not in the diagnostic criteria. However, Aspies tend to be brutally honest, and NTs tend to lie a lot of the time. That is something that I have experienced my whole life, that has been voiced numerous times on this board, and has been written about by professionals. I know a lot about people with AS because I have AS, and I think I know myself. Plus, I know approximately eight other people diagnosed with AS, and many more that I think might have AS.



I don't have hard empirical evidence on this one, but to me, making someone feel loved and a certain degree of seduction are the same thing. And I don't know how to make someone feel loved.



I do agree that once an abusive relationship has begun, the energy needs to be focused on punishing the aggressor and protecting the victim. That's what womens' shelters are for, and I am a supporter of the one in my community - I have donated cash and various stuff that they need, including for the children of victims. But my point is that abuse needs to be stopped before it starts. Watch "But He Loves Me". This made-for-TV-movie/documentary from 1991 (airing on CBS) that I posted about awhile back demonstrates very well that women do have a responsibility to make wise decisions about who they will date. It is not always possible to avoid abuse, but women can make wise decisions that will help protect them. Many abusive guys have common traits, including a history of abuse, a criminal past, disrespectful behaviour, or even explicit threats over associating with other guys. This is NOT about blaming women, but it is about giving them the tools to help protect themselves and avoid abuse BEFORE it happens. But don't tell the feminist man-haters that.



In one of my university courses this past year we studied feminism. The most extreme feminists believe that they don't need to marry a man, and thus the stereotype developed in the 1970s that feminists were lesbians (which they are not, for the most part). But the point of my question was that I want to know how a man and a woman can fall in love if there is no seduction involved. It doesn't get any simpler than that. The point of the other comment is that there is no falling in love for the true, extreme feminist, and I thought the feminists here might say that there is no need for anyone to fall in love.



It has plenty to do with anything. Women pursuing guys that threaten to kill them or have a past history of abuse or crime is like leaving the door to your house wide open during the night. Nobody in their right mind would leave their doors and windows open - the necessary precautions required to avoid being robbed, kidnapped, or even murdered are not being taken. And the cops and neighbourhood watch folks will tell you that. However when it comes to protecting oneself from relationship abuse, people like yourself think women shouldn't take any precautions.



The partner does have responsibility. I have said that many times but feminists like yourself just don't get it. It's called picking and choosing what parts of my posts you want to read. And I fully support getting women out of abusive relationships and punishing the offenders. You feminists want to believe that I don't support that, and you feminists choose to ignore that I am focussing only on before abusive relationships start, not on the relationships themselves. Society is working well on that part, but they are doing nothing about helping women avoid abuse in the first place because of feminist man-haters that think women should take zero precautions. It is people like yourself that cannot see that Canadian murder victim Laura W. could have protected herself by not pursuing a guy in Millhaven Penitentary and driving four hours to go pick him up and bring him to Southwestern Ontario when he went on parole.



I did give credible evidence awhile back. There were some numerical statistics on abuse that I posted back in March. Plus, that newspaper article about the Laura W. murder case.

That is where I get some of my evidence from. I know many women that complain constantly about abuse and disrespect from men, but then they go and get the worst guy they can find.



That is particularly an issue where women are outnumbered by men. And it is very true that women, in general, still expect men to make all the moves.