Anyone ever wonder why
10 Aug 2011, 1:15 pm
Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Roman wrote:
AsteroidNap wrote:
Before I leave this thread, I just have to ask...
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
No I didn't do the things you suggested.
But what I DID do was devote my life to physics. I did double major in math and physics as an undergrad and then I went on to get ph.d. in Physics and now I am doing a postdoc. So from my point of view the attitude towards studies and work ethnics is far more important than what kind of shirt I wear. Yet, NT-s (both men and women) seem to think the opposite, which is why I feel they are shallow.
he was talking about self-improvement for the purposes of dating. it is possible to be at the top of the field in physics and still wear a nice shirt.
I am not refusing to do it. I am just saying there is bound to be more stuff like that that I overlook. And it is unfair that when girls decide whom to date, they judge a person based by the clothes and not based on what htey do with their life. Its like in their mind the fact that I don't have "cool" clothing makes me so bad that nothing (including physics career) can "make up" for it. And this is what I find to be unfair.
Yeah...so life is unfair. You can come to a place like WP and complain about it...it's not going to change the fact that life is unfair. You can either decide to do something about the spheres you control, or not. But it is YOUR choice.
Also, believing that the world owes you something because of your outstanding credentials is a recipe for disappointment.
10 Aug 2011, 1:33 pm
Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Roman wrote:
AsteroidNap wrote:
Before I leave this thread, I just have to ask...
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
No I didn't do the things you suggested.
But what I DID do was devote my life to physics. I did double major in math and physics as an undergrad and then I went on to get ph.d. in Physics and now I am doing a postdoc. So from my point of view the attitude towards studies and work ethnics is far more important than what kind of shirt I wear. Yet, NT-s (both men and women) seem to think the opposite, which is why I feel they are shallow.
he was talking about self-improvement for the purposes of dating. it is possible to be at the top of the field in physics and still wear a nice shirt.
I am not refusing to do it. I am just saying there is bound to be more stuff like that that I overlook. And it is unfair that when girls decide whom to date, they judge a person based by the clothes and not based on what htey do with their life. Its like in their mind the fact that I don't have "cool" clothing makes me so bad that nothing (including physics career) can "make up" for it. And this is what I find to be unfair.
It is absolutely fair. The girls are judging who they think they will be most compatible with. If they don't think they will be compatible with a man who wears certain clothes then they are right- they won't. By your own admission you have had multiple girlfriends (even starting a thread on how to dump one of them) so this sorting system must be working alright. It is keeping incompatible women away from you and only allowing in women with whom you have a chance of being compatible.
10 Aug 2011, 3:58 pm
Janissy wrote:
Roman wrote:
I am not refusing to do it. I am just saying there is bound to be more stuff like that that I overlook. And it is unfair that when girls decide whom to date, they judge a person based by the clothes and not based on what htey do with their life. Its like in their mind the fact that I don't have "cool" clothing makes me so bad that nothing (including physics career) can "make up" for it. And this is what I find to be unfair.
It is absolutely fair. The girls are judging who they think they will be most compatible with. If they don't think they will be compatible with a man who wears certain clothes then they are right- they won't. By your own admission you have had multiple girlfriends (even starting a thread on how to dump one of them) so this sorting system must be working alright. It is keeping incompatible women away from you and only allowing in women with whom you have a chance of being compatible.
Of course that is the other way to look at it...I agree.
11 Aug 2011, 1:28 am
Janissy wrote:
Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Roman wrote:
AsteroidNap wrote:
Before I leave this thread, I just have to ask...
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
What are you'll doing to improve yourselves? Specifically, I mean BillyJoe and Roman. I mean, I get the sense that you keep approaching the issue the same way every time, and expect a different outcome?
Yeah, I know: "Just be yourself". But that only goes so far. If you wanted to be an astrophysicist, but lived by the mantra 'be yourself', you'd be stuck with Calc 101 as your only training.
For example, my next goal in self-improvement is to develop a sense of style. I never really cared about style...ever. Never saw the point. But now I see style as a way to communicate to others. It doesn't have to be superficial either. Wear t-shirts like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory communicates that you're a geek guy to geek girls. That's just one example. So yeah. Self-improvement is actionable. Generalized complaining about women, not very helpful to you.
No I didn't do the things you suggested.
But what I DID do was devote my life to physics. I did double major in math and physics as an undergrad and then I went on to get ph.d. in Physics and now I am doing a postdoc. So from my point of view the attitude towards studies and work ethnics is far more important than what kind of shirt I wear. Yet, NT-s (both men and women) seem to think the opposite, which is why I feel they are shallow.
he was talking about self-improvement for the purposes of dating. it is possible to be at the top of the field in physics and still wear a nice shirt.
I am not refusing to do it. I am just saying there is bound to be more stuff like that that I overlook. And it is unfair that when girls decide whom to date, they judge a person based by the clothes and not based on what htey do with their life. Its like in their mind the fact that I don't have "cool" clothing makes me so bad that nothing (including physics career) can "make up" for it. And this is what I find to be unfair.
It is absolutely fair. The girls are judging who they think they will be most compatible with. If they don't think they will be compatible with a man who wears certain clothes then they are right- they won't. By your own admission you have had multiple girlfriends (even starting a thread on how to dump one of them) so this sorting system must be working alright. It is keeping incompatible women away from you and only allowing in women with whom you have a chance of being compatible.
But why would girl "not be compatible" if a man wears a wrong clothing? If clothing is really an issue, then why can't the girl simply tell me what clothing does she, personally, prefer I wear, and I will wear exactly what she wants? I actually said things to some girls to this effect -- not regarding clothing but regarding other things. Their answer is that I have to be comfortable who I am and I shouldn't change for someone else. Well, to me, this doesn't mean "changing for someone else" at all. Quite frankly I don't care what clothes I wear and most of the time I have to actually look at my shirt in order to remember juts what did I put on. So, I don't find putting on whatever the girl tells me she wants me on as "changing for her", at all.
Now, if by "changing for someone else" she means the fact that I don't care about clothes and now I take time to care then yeah I see the point. But in this case, how come if I speak to any third party, such as the advice I get from this thread, I am told "yes I have to learn fashion and stuff"; but, at the same time, the girl involved who is rejecting me, will tell me I have to be comfortable with who I am? Is the "trick" that I learn it all on my own without any girl around and then, when the girl comes, I have to "pretend" that I was born with this kind of fashion style? Well, whats the point of this game. Everyone knows that most 5 year olds didn't have fasion style; so everyone learned it at some point. So why not be honest and say "okay I didn't learn fasion style on my own, why can't you teach me"?
Now I know what NT would probably answer. Probably the situation is that there are different groups of NT-s, some like this style and others like the other style. So I am supposed to decide ON MY OWN which group I most admire and THEN work to fit into that group. So what they are probably objecting to is the fact that I say "I will belong to such and such group because of YOU". Well, quite frankly, with things that REALLY MATTER such as my career choice, I am doing what I "really want" (I would never switch from physics to chemistry for someone else). But what style of clothes I wear? C'mon. I just don't see why it matters so much to begin with. But if it matters TO HER so much that she feels I will not be compatible because of this thing, well, fine, I am more than willing to change for her; it will cost me nothing.
11 Aug 2011, 1:32 am
AsteroidNap wrote:
Yeah...so life is unfair..
But you see, the girls are individuals with their own brains. Why do they have to mechanically follow the "computer program" called "life"? If that "program" is clearly unfair why can't they, as individuals, realize how unfair it is, and do what is fair?
11 Aug 2011, 5:43 am
Roman wrote:
AsteroidNap wrote:
Yeah...so life is unfair..
But you see, the girls are individuals with their own brains. Why do they have to mechanically follow the "computer program" called "life"? If that "program" is clearly unfair why can't they, as individuals, realize how unfair it is, and do what is fair?
So you want to whole world to change just for you?...excuse me, but that is one huge ego you've got there. Not only that, it is incredibly naive. You expect the girls to change, and not be themselves, while you go along stubbornly unchanged. And this isn't just about fashion or style...that was just an example I used. This is about growing as a person.
But hey, you sound bound and determined to make excuses for any advice given. So I guess I have no reason to be in this thread.
11 Aug 2011, 6:00 am
AsteroidNap wrote:
And this isn't just about fashion or style...that was just an example I used.
That is precisely why its the problem. How can I find out the list of the rest of the examples to see just what should I do to grow? Probably there are 1000 items on the list, all as silly-sounding as clothes. So for that reason i would never think of any of them and yet be judged for it.
AsteroidNap wrote:
This is about growing as a person.
Now we are onto something. You see, when I read the word "growing as a person" I am thinking more along the "deeper" lines, such as how caring a person is, and so forth. So when I see a girl saying "I want to be with a guy that is mature as a person", my immediate reaction is "phew ... this is the girl who will NOT care about the clothes i wear; perhaps she will look past my aspieness and appreciate me for who I really am". But most of the time I am wrong.
Now, based on what you just said, it turns out that most people when they use the word "growing" they mean different things from what I mean. I mean to other people fashion is an example of "growing as a person", while to me it clearly isn't. And this brings me to asking: do other people simply lump together all these different ways of "growing" under the same subject and don't realize that some of these ways are a lot more shallow than other ways?
AsteroidNap wrote:
So you want to whole world to change just for you?...excuse me, but that is one huge ego you've got there. Not only that, it is incredibly naive. You expect the girls to change, and not be themselves, while you go along stubbornly unchanged.
It is funny you phrased it in this particular way, especially since in my response to Janissy (Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:28 pm) I was saying how I WANT to change and I was criticizing GIRLS for telling ME I should "remain who I am". Perhaps you should re-read that response. I have a sense that perhaps you read it a bit too fast and was responding to something you think I was saying which I weren't.
AsteroidNap wrote:
But hey, you sound bound and determined to make excuses for any advice given. So I guess I have no reason to be in this thread.
I never said "I am not going to do what you suggested" in the future tense; I only said I "didn't" do the things you named in the PAST tense. I merely stated how its unfair. Perhaps I will do what you suggested and try to see what will happen; although, quite honestly, I don't think wearing different clothes would change anything since the list goes far beyond just clothes. So perhaps you can give me 10 other examples or so.
11 Aug 2011, 7:45 am
Roman wrote:
But why would girl "not be compatible" if a man wears a wrong clothing? If clothing is really an issue, then why can't the girl simply tell me what clothing does she, personally, prefer I wear, and I will wear exactly what she wants? I actually said things to some girls to this effect -- not regarding clothing but regarding other things. Their answer is that I have to be comfortable who I am and I shouldn't change for someone else. Well, to me, this doesn't mean "changing for someone else" at all. Quite frankly I don't care what clothes I wear and most of the time I have to actually look at my shirt in order to remember juts what did I put on. So, I don't find putting on whatever the girl tells me she wants me on as "changing for her", at all.
Now, if by "changing for someone else" she means the fact that I don't care about clothes and now I take time to care then yeah I see the point. But in this case, how come if I speak to any third party, such as the advice I get from this thread, I am told "yes I have to learn fashion and stuff"; but, at the same time, the girl involved who is rejecting me, will tell me I have to be comfortable with who I am? Is the "trick" that I learn it all on my own without any girl around and then, when the girl comes, I have to "pretend" that I was born with this kind of fashion style? Well, whats the point of this game. Everyone knows that most 5 year olds didn't have fasion style; so everyone learned it at some point. So why not be honest and say "okay I didn't learn fasion style on my own, why can't you teach me"?
Now I know what NT would probably answer. Probably the situation is that there are different groups of NT-s, some like this style and others like the other style. So I am supposed to decide ON MY OWN which group I most admire and THEN work to fit into that group. So what they are probably objecting to is the fact that I say "I will belong to such and such group because of YOU". Well, quite frankly, with things that REALLY MATTER such as my career choice, I am doing what I "really want" (I would never switch from physics to chemistry for someone else). But what style of clothes I wear? C'mon. I just don't see why it matters so much to begin with. But if it matters TO HER so much that she feels I will not be compatible because of this thing, well, fine, I am more than willing to change for her; it will cost me nothing.
Now, if by "changing for someone else" she means the fact that I don't care about clothes and now I take time to care then yeah I see the point. But in this case, how come if I speak to any third party, such as the advice I get from this thread, I am told "yes I have to learn fashion and stuff"; but, at the same time, the girl involved who is rejecting me, will tell me I have to be comfortable with who I am? Is the "trick" that I learn it all on my own without any girl around and then, when the girl comes, I have to "pretend" that I was born with this kind of fashion style? Well, whats the point of this game. Everyone knows that most 5 year olds didn't have fasion style; so everyone learned it at some point. So why not be honest and say "okay I didn't learn fasion style on my own, why can't you teach me"?
Now I know what NT would probably answer. Probably the situation is that there are different groups of NT-s, some like this style and others like the other style. So I am supposed to decide ON MY OWN which group I most admire and THEN work to fit into that group. So what they are probably objecting to is the fact that I say "I will belong to such and such group because of YOU". Well, quite frankly, with things that REALLY MATTER such as my career choice, I am doing what I "really want" (I would never switch from physics to chemistry for someone else). But what style of clothes I wear? C'mon. I just don't see why it matters so much to begin with. But if it matters TO HER so much that she feels I will not be compatible because of this thing, well, fine, I am more than willing to change for her; it will cost me nothing.
I bolded the part where you figured out why women are using clothes (among many other things) as a way to sort out which men they are compatible with. As you noted, there are many groups of NTs (of people in general, since you don't need to be NT to be in a group) and each has its' own style. Clothes are a group signifier. They tell other people what group you belong to. Judging by your posts, the group you belong to is that of the lifetime academic. You have spent the bulk of your life attending university and earning degrees. When that is completed, you will spend the remainder of your life working for a university.
Men in that group have a particular style and it is exactly as you have described your clothes. Lifetime academics care about research, not looks, and so pay no attention to clothes beyond making sure they meet the requirements of decency and weather. Universities also have the most lenient dress codes of literally any institution so a lifetime academic can go from 18 to 68 looking exactly the same.
Women who don't want to be with a lifetime academic- even if they haven't heard the term and don't know its' specifics- will reject you based on your clothes because even if they can't pinpoint it exactly, they know your clothes are signifying that you don't belong to the group they are interested in. It isn't the clothes as such that certain women feel incompatible with- they are actually clueing in to how they would be incompatible with a lifetime academic. To give a silly example, a woman who wants to spend her time going to nightclubs to listen to bands will hone in on the men who dress as though they also would like to go to nightclubs and listen to bands. It would be pointless for such a woman to decide to date you despite your lifetime academic wardrobe and then insist that you wear the clothes worn by indie rock fans. The clothes won't change you into an indie rock fan so its' not the clothes she's objecting to. It's the fact that a man wearing a particular type of clothes is unlikely to want to attend a Death Cab For Cutie (or whoever) concert with her or he will just to go along but will secretly hate it and never do it again once they are a couple.
Nevertheless, you have had girlfriends. These were the women who looked at your clothes and thought you would be compatible with a man who wore them. Perhaps they could tell just by looking at you that you would never drag them to a club or make them be a jogging partner. If you had shown up in completely different clothes- perhaps a formerly-fashionable trucker hat- they would have passed you by. Not because there is anything inherently bad about formerly-fashionable trucker hats. But because the men who wear them belong to a particular group that they are incompatible with.
When young men are advised to get different clothes, it's so they don't look as though they belong to a particular group. That group is The Ambitionless Man Who Will Never Move Out Of His Mother's Basement and Plays Videogames All Day. That is a particularly unattractive group for many women, far more so than Lifetime Academic (which is attractive to certain women). It's also not a permanent group (unlike Lifetime Academic which by defintion you belong to permanently) so dressing in a certain way signifies that even if the man in question currently belongs to the group, he won't always.
11 Aug 2011, 8:05 am
Roman wrote:
AsteroidNap wrote:
Yeah...so life is unfair..
But you see, the girls are individuals with their own brains. Why do they have to mechanically follow the "computer program" called "life"? If that "program" is clearly unfair why can't they, as individuals, realize how unfair it is, and do what is fair?
These women aren't actually follwing a program. They are using visual and verbal cues to screen out men with whom they are incompatible. To suspend that judgement for the sake of being fair to every man would require women to go on a date with every man who was interested in them. And that's unfair to the women. Why should they give every man who is interested in them a chance? Why should they spend countless evenings on dates they don't enjoy just to be fair? There are some women who do just that. But they aren't doing it to be fair. They are doing it to cast a wide net because casting a narrow net hasn't been working for them.
This is why speed dating has become popular. It allows people to interact on a "date" (of perhaps 15 minutes) in order to make a quick decision. It is as close to your vision of fairness as is likely to happen. So maybe you should look into that. But even then, a judgement is made when the 15 minutes are up. Life is literally too short to not make judgements about potential mates. If I could be 25 for 200 years, I probably would date every man who asked me, just out of curiosity. But as it turned out, I was only 25 for 365 days so I had to make judgements frequently. And that is fair.
This screening system isn't unique to women. There have been many, many threads where posters described the criteria that they would use to screen out other people. Things such as "smoker", "uses drugs" etc. (To cite the two that appeared on nearly every list). That is screening even if it isn't clothes.
11 Aug 2011, 4:22 pm
Janissy, I agree with you that they are probably looking at clothes in order to judge other things. But this is still unfair. I mean just because in majority of cases the clothes reflects other things, it might not always be true. So why use some "theory" instead of just ask. If they want to know whether or not I will enjoy them taking me to such and such concert, then just ASK ME! Why try to guess by looking at clothes or other "signs"?
As far as your argument about time, I don't think this is the only issue. How about, for example, women who are willing to be just friends. So clearly they have "time" to do friendship things, but they would STILL not consider using that time to reevaluate their opinion as to whether or not I am a dating material. And that is what I don't get.
Speaking of "lifetime academic" this would be my top choice of a girl I want to have. So apparently other lifetime academics don't find me attractive either, since I am being forced to look at other kinds of girls.
11 Aug 2011, 8:49 pm
I understand you completely, BillyJoe. I'm very shy and rarely approach others. I find it considerably frustrating that I, as the male, have to conform to societal standards be the aggressive one, when I'm shy and passive. While sexist prejudice still exists in the form of 'the glass ceiling', this is an age where woman have vastly more amounts of confidence, power, freedom, etc then in the past. If that's the case, why am I STILL the one who has to strike up conversations? Why am I the one who has to do the pursuing, which ALWAYS leads to rejection for me? In this regard, I think Aspie males have it harder.
