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Are more women than not willing to date Gastons

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rabbittss
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29 Apr 2012, 1:09 pm

Things work differently in different countries.



Kurgan
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29 Apr 2012, 1:15 pm

rabbittss wrote:
Things work differently in different countries.


My guess is that the guys you're talking about are where they are because of daddy's wallet. We have spoiled pretty boys in Norway as well. Thankfully, these guys are eady to put in their place if they get cocky.



DW_a_mom
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29 Apr 2012, 3:44 pm

rabbittss wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:



Even if someone is genuinely a truly non"" nice guy, just the sweetest most thoughtful person, that still doesn't mean anyone owes him sex, or is wrong for choosing a guy with other qualities, a woman isn't punishing him for not being alpha enough with her friendship. A truly nice guy would value the friendship of a woman he admired instead of lamenting being "friendzoned".



I don't agree. Friendzoning is the specific act of one party, typically the woman, changing the rules in order to have her cake and eat it too. This way she gets to keep the legitimately nice guy on the hook, to be an emotional dumping ground, because she knows he is interested in her, while at the same time going out with guys she actually likes. The only equivalent I can really think of, and I'm sure it happens, is a "hot" guy who keeps stringing along a less attractive girl because she wants him bad enough to keep putting out.. even though he is ignoring her 80% of the time.

Friendzoneing is a completely different animal than mutually choosing to "just be friends". I've had both things happen to me, and I know there is a difference. Friendzoneing always contains and undercurrent of flirtation designed to keep the other parties attention from wavering.


I think this obviously depends on the people. I never friendzoned someone to have an emotional dumping ground; it was always someone I genuinely liked but didn't see long term compatibility factors with, and I usually assumed he probably saw the same, just I was the first one to actually call it. If the attraction difference is too deep, you can't have an effective friendzone, and it is only kind to cut things fully off as soon as you figure it out. But it can take time to realize you need to do that.


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rabbittss
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29 Apr 2012, 3:52 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

I think this obviously depends on the people. I never friendzoned someone to have an emotional dumping ground; it was always someone I genuinely liked but didn't see long term compatibility factors with, and I usually assumed he probably saw the same, just I was the first one to actually call it. If the attraction difference is too deep, you can't have an effective friendzone, and it is only kind to cut things fully off as soon as you figure it out. But it can take time to realize you need to do that.


I think you have kind of hit the nail here. I'm not saying it's always the case of being used for an emotional dumping ground, or that all women do that, I've known quite a few who haven't done that.. but also quite a few who have. The heart of the issue is, You ASSUMED he saw the same, but didn't ask. That means the two of you could be working at cross purposes. I would imagine just as many 'Friendzone' examples are caused by this miscommunication, as by any real malicious intent. You assume he thinks of you as just a friend, he assumes by you continuing to spend time with him there is still a chance of a romantic relationship. He flirts, you respond, it reinforces his opinions, and then one day when you start talking about this guy you met, he realizes that what he thought was going on, wasn't, and then feels angry and betrayed. Misunderstandings cause problems, and when even N/T's can miss subtle hints and wind up with these misunderstandings, it is that much more likely for Non-N/T's to have even more trouble recognizing them.

It's better to talk about it up front, ground level, as soon as you realize the problem, than leaving it for the other person to try and figure out, all the while they could legitimately be laboring under false pretenses, even if you don't mean for it to happen.



DW_a_mom
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29 Apr 2012, 3:52 pm

rabbittss wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
If it is indeed true that most women choose "Gastons" over actual nice men, then I don't see anything wrong with complaining about it. It makes sense to whine a bit when kind people get screwed and jerks get rewarded. There's a difference between feeling overly entitled and being understandably upset at the unfairness of life.


You're 16. ;) Wait ten years and see where the cool guys who get all the best girls today end up. Most that I can think of today are out of shape, employed in crappy jobs, have no education and still live at home... and the best part is that most attractive girls won't give them a second look. :)


in the US at least, they are the ones who are living on their own, driving the biggest cars on their 45 minute commute, working well paying low effort jobs and have a wife and 2.5 kids in the suburbs. It's those of us who never had any success at anything in Highschool are doing all the things you said. Success breeds success. There is no cosmic karma waiting around the corner to right wrongs.


I haven't seen that to be true. Some of those guys make it, some don't. And that ones that really were jerks usually do get their karma. In order to make it and do well, they do have to be well rounded and actually "nice" in some fashion.

I have no doubt that my son's popular friend (they've known each other since kindergarten, and the kids is pretty much friends with everyone) will be successful early. But he is no Gaston. He is just genuinely nice and genuinely smart and surprisingly naturally talented athletically; this is a kid that has literally threatened anyone with permanent removal from his circle if they say anything bad about my son. All the girls like him, of course, because he is athletic, decent looking, smart AND NICE.

But don't be too quick to assume life isn't fair, how did he get all the goodies. I know about that child's family life and I've seen him in tears over an issue between his parents. NO ONE GETS IT ALL. Just never forget that; just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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29 Apr 2012, 3:57 pm

Quote:
All the girls like him, of course, because he is athletic, decent looking, smart AND NICE.


If he was ugly and smart and nice would all the girls like him? I doubt it , because i never saw this in my life.

If he was athletic, decent looking, smart but not really nice , would all the girls like him? I believe most would anyways because i saw a lot of examples (bullies who are popular).


C'mon, niceness was never much of a factor in the equation of popularity.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 29 Apr 2012, 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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29 Apr 2012, 3:58 pm

rabbittss wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:

I think this obviously depends on the people. I never friendzoned someone to have an emotional dumping ground; it was always someone I genuinely liked but didn't see long term compatibility factors with, and I usually assumed he probably saw the same, just I was the first one to actually call it. If the attraction difference is too deep, you can't have an effective friendzone, and it is only kind to cut things fully off as soon as you figure it out. But it can take time to realize you need to do that.


I think you have kind of hit the nail here. I'm not saying it's always the case of being used for an emotional dumping ground, or that all women do that, I've known quite a few who haven't done that.. but also quite a few who have. The heart of the issue is, You ASSUMED he saw the same, but didn't ask. That means the two of you could be working at cross purposes. I would imagine just as many 'Friendzone' examples are caused by this miscommunication, as by any real malicious intent. You assume he thinks of you as just a friend, he assumes by you continuing to spend time with him there is still a chance of a romantic relationship. He flirts, you respond, it reinforces his opinions, and then one day when you start talking about this guy you met, he realizes that what he thought was going on, wasn't, and then feels angry and betrayed. Misunderstandings cause problems, and when even N/T's can miss subtle hints and wind up with these misunderstandings, it is that much more likely for Non-N/T's to have even more trouble recognizing them.

It's better to talk about it up front, ground level, as soon as you realize the problem, than leaving it for the other person to try and figure out, all the while they could legitimately be laboring under false pretenses, even if you don't mean for it to happen.


Agreed. But sometimes what one person thinks IS talking about it upfront, manages to escape notice by the other. Religion, for example. If I sheepishly say, "that is a big difference in how we see things," does the guy realize I'm talking about a possible deal killer? It's not like I am even allowed to say, "I could never marry you because of this difference."


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rabbittss
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29 Apr 2012, 4:03 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:

I think this obviously depends on the people. I never friendzoned someone to have an emotional dumping ground; it was always someone I genuinely liked but didn't see long term compatibility factors with, and I usually assumed he probably saw the same, just I was the first one to actually call it. If the attraction difference is too deep, you can't have an effective friendzone, and it is only kind to cut things fully off as soon as you figure it out. But it can take time to realize you need to do that.


I think you have kind of hit the nail here. I'm not saying it's always the case of being used for an emotional dumping ground, or that all women do that, I've known quite a few who haven't done that.. but also quite a few who have. The heart of the issue is, You ASSUMED he saw the same, but didn't ask. That means the two of you could be working at cross purposes. I would imagine just as many 'Friendzone' examples are caused by this miscommunication, as by any real malicious intent. You assume he thinks of you as just a friend, he assumes by you continuing to spend time with him there is still a chance of a romantic relationship. He flirts, you respond, it reinforces his opinions, and then one day when you start talking about this guy you met, he realizes that what he thought was going on, wasn't, and then feels angry and betrayed. Misunderstandings cause problems, and when even N/T's can miss subtle hints and wind up with these misunderstandings, it is that much more likely for Non-N/T's to have even more trouble recognizing them.

It's better to talk about it up front, ground level, as soon as you realize the problem, than leaving it for the other person to try and figure out, all the while they could legitimately be laboring under false pretenses, even if you don't mean for it to happen.


Agreed. But sometimes what one person thinks IS talking about it upfront, manages to escape notice by the other. Religion, for example. If I sheepishly say, "that is a big difference in how we see things," does the guy realize I'm talking about a possible deal killer? It's not like I am even allowed to say, "I could never marry you because of this difference."


See I would not only say "That is an absolute deal killer" but I would also likely immediately leave. I'd rather leave no doubt at all about what I meant. But then see I'm not really looking to expand my social circle beyond getting a girlfriend, if I offend her and she doesn't want to be my friend, then I'm not any worse off than I was before. I'd rather her get offended now than 6 months down the road.



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29 Apr 2012, 4:05 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
All the girls like him, of course, because he is athletic, decent looking, smart AND NICE.


If he was ugly and smart and nice would all the girls like him? I doubt it , because i never saw this in my life.

If he was athletic, decent looking, smart but not really nice , would all the girls like him? I believe most would anyways because i saw a lot of examples (bullies who are popular).


C'mon, niceness was never much of a factor in the equation of popularity.


But it is. It is this guy's true gift. It is why he literally has a thousand friends.

It is also why PARENTS universally would be happy to have their daughters end up with him, and parent's matter.

And I've never said that ugly isn't a set back in dating, I've just said that extreme good looks aren't a guaranteed winner. Important difference. All this guy is, is "decent" looking. Average. Nothing more, nothing less, straight A honor student, interested in being a scientist if the pro-athlete thing doesn't work out (which odds remain against, and he knows it). What kicks him over the line into popularity is the true ability to make friends with absolutely anyone. That kind of thing is super attractive in a guy.

I watched it carefully when my son and him first became friends, because some of my son's friendships weren't exactly equal. But this one always was: this kid was genuinely interested in my son's ideas and inventions, but also straightforward about when they didn't share an interest, just simple and direct about it. never a hint of being judgmental. Kids like that really have a gift. Our running joke has been that if my son ever does come up with a great invention, we'll hire this guy to be the president of his company.


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29 Apr 2012, 4:16 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
All the girls like him, of course, because he is athletic, decent looking, smart AND NICE.


If he was ugly and smart and nice would all the girls like him? I doubt it , because i never saw this in my life.

If he was athletic, decent looking, smart but not really nice , would all the girls like him? I believe most would anyways because i saw a lot of examples (bullies who are popular).


C'mon, niceness was never much of a factor in the equation of popularity.


But it is. It is this guy's true gift. It is why he literally has a thousand friends.

It is also why PARENTS universally would be happy to have their daughters end up with him, and parent's matter.

And I've never said that ugly isn't a set back in dating, I've just said that extreme good looks aren't a guaranteed winner. Important difference. All this guy is, is "decent" looking. Average. Nothing more, nothing less, straight A honor student, interested in being a scientist if the pro-athlete thing doesn't work out (which odds remain against, and he knows it). What kicks him over the line into popularity is the true ability to make friends with absolutely anyone.

I watched it carefully when my son and him first became friends, because some of my son's friendships weren't exactly equal. But this one always was: this kid was genuinely interested in my son's ideas and inventions, but also straightforward about when they didn't share an interest, just simple and direct about it. never a hint of being judgmental. Kids like that really have a gift. Our running joke has been that if my son ever does come up with a great invention, we'll hire this guy to be the president of his company.


Quote:
All this guy is, is "decent" looking. Average. Nothing more, nothing less, straight A honor student, interested in being a scientist if the pro-athlete thing doesn't work out (which odds remain against, and he knows it). What kicks him over the line into popularity is the true ability to make friends with absolutely anyone.


Ok he' s an amazing NT person with good genes.

How does that can help us and inspire us?



The_Face_of_Boo
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29 Apr 2012, 4:17 pm

How about your son DW_a_mom, how successful he is with girls and getting friends?

(just out of curiosity)



DW_a_mom
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29 Apr 2012, 4:18 pm

rabbittss wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:

I think this obviously depends on the people. I never friendzoned someone to have an emotional dumping ground; it was always someone I genuinely liked but didn't see long term compatibility factors with, and I usually assumed he probably saw the same, just I was the first one to actually call it. If the attraction difference is too deep, you can't have an effective friendzone, and it is only kind to cut things fully off as soon as you figure it out. But it can take time to realize you need to do that.


I think you have kind of hit the nail here. I'm not saying it's always the case of being used for an emotional dumping ground, or that all women do that, I've known quite a few who haven't done that.. but also quite a few who have. The heart of the issue is, You ASSUMED he saw the same, but didn't ask. That means the two of you could be working at cross purposes. I would imagine just as many 'Friendzone' examples are caused by this miscommunication, as by any real malicious intent. You assume he thinks of you as just a friend, he assumes by you continuing to spend time with him there is still a chance of a romantic relationship. He flirts, you respond, it reinforces his opinions, and then one day when you start talking about this guy you met, he realizes that what he thought was going on, wasn't, and then feels angry and betrayed. Misunderstandings cause problems, and when even N/T's can miss subtle hints and wind up with these misunderstandings, it is that much more likely for Non-N/T's to have even more trouble recognizing them.

It's better to talk about it up front, ground level, as soon as you realize the problem, than leaving it for the other person to try and figure out, all the while they could legitimately be laboring under false pretenses, even if you don't mean for it to happen.


Agreed. But sometimes what one person thinks IS talking about it upfront, manages to escape notice by the other. Religion, for example. If I sheepishly say, "that is a big difference in how we see things," does the guy realize I'm talking about a possible deal killer? It's not like I am even allowed to say, "I could never marry you because of this difference."


See I would not only say "That is an absolute deal killer" but I would also likely immediately leave. I'd rather leave no doubt at all about what I meant. But then see I'm not really looking to expand my social circle beyond getting a girlfriend, if I offend her and she doesn't want to be my friend, then I'm not any worse off than I was before. I'd rather her get offended now than 6 months down the road.


That is your choice.

But I've found true male friends to be valuable, and as with any friendship, you never know who will develop into being a real friend, so I've always hesitated to end a connection if it is with someone I find interesting. Life is about building connections wherever you can, you never know what they will bring back to you.


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29 Apr 2012, 4:25 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
All the girls like him, of course, because he is athletic, decent looking, smart AND NICE.


If he was ugly and smart and nice would all the girls like him? I doubt it , because i never saw this in my life.

If he was athletic, decent looking, smart but not really nice , would all the girls like him? I believe most would anyways because i saw a lot of examples (bullies who are popular).


C'mon, niceness was never much of a factor in the equation of popularity.


But it is. It is this guy's true gift. It is why he literally has a thousand friends.

It is also why PARENTS universally would be happy to have their daughters end up with him, and parent's matter.

And I've never said that ugly isn't a set back in dating, I've just said that extreme good looks aren't a guaranteed winner. Important difference. All this guy is, is "decent" looking. Average. Nothing more, nothing less, straight A honor student, interested in being a scientist if the pro-athlete thing doesn't work out (which odds remain against, and he knows it). What kicks him over the line into popularity is the true ability to make friends with absolutely anyone.

I watched it carefully when my son and him first became friends, because some of my son's friendships weren't exactly equal. But this one always was: this kid was genuinely interested in my son's ideas and inventions, but also straightforward about when they didn't share an interest, just simple and direct about it. never a hint of being judgmental. Kids like that really have a gift. Our running joke has been that if my son ever does come up with a great invention, we'll hire this guy to be the president of his company.


Quote:
All this guy is, is "decent" looking. Average. Nothing more, nothing less, straight A honor student, interested in being a scientist if the pro-athlete thing doesn't work out (which odds remain against, and he knows it). What kicks him over the line into popularity is the true ability to make friends with absolutely anyone.


Ok he' s an amazing NT person with good genes.

How does that can help us and inspire us?


You are right, it went off track. I got so eager to refute a point that I picked an example which isn't particularly helpful to the guys on this board. Point still refuted, but to make it useful to you ... just remember that most men who appear to be making it on athleticism alone are not. A few do, but who would want that type of relationship? Let the shallow people date the shallow people and never, for one minute, wish you were one of them (Chloe and Lamar, anyone?).


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29 Apr 2012, 4:27 pm

rabbittss wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
If it is indeed true that most women choose "Gastons" over actual nice men, then I don't see anything wrong with complaining about it. It makes sense to whine a bit when kind people get screwed and jerks get rewarded. There's a difference between feeling overly entitled and being understandably upset at the unfairness of life.


You're 16. ;) Wait ten years and see where the cool guys who get all the best girls today end up. Most that I can think of today are out of shape, employed in crappy jobs, have no education and still live at home... and the best part is that most attractive girls won't give them a second look. :)


in the US at least, they are the ones who are living on their own, driving the biggest cars on their 45 minute commute, working well paying low effort jobs and have a wife and 2.5 kids in the suburbs. It's those of us who never had any success at anything in Highschool are doing all the things you said. Success breeds success. There is no cosmic karma waiting around the corner to right wrongs.

no, those are not the only men who are dating and getting married.


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29 Apr 2012, 4:29 pm

A common theme I've noticed is 'men who impose their way of seeing things upon people around them' are attractive to women. This explains alpha males, gatsons, and MoR nice guys being popular with women. Although maybe this is too broad of a definition.

A crude (but very erudite) friend once said 'Socrates hardly got any...'. Interesting, as you can more easily imagine this being true than false. It touches on the importance of of social norms with women again. Wish I'd taken psychology rather than politics at college sometimes. Damn.



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29 Apr 2012, 4:31 pm

beezy wrote:
A common theme I've noticed is 'men who impose their way of seeing things upon people around them' are attractive to women. This explains alpha males, gatsons, and MoR nice guys being popular with women. Although maybe this is too broad of a definition.

A crude (but very erudite) friend once said 'Socrates hardly got any...'. Interesting, as you can more easily imagine this being true than false. It touches on the importance of of social norms with women again. Wish I'd taken psychology rather than politics at college sometimes. Damn.

not necessarily. someone who imposes their ideas on others can also end up delusional and alone. it's a narcissistic perspective and narcissists are not always attractive.


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