The problem with letting a woman know you care about looks

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ValentineWiggin
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30 May 2012, 7:28 pm

MXH wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

^So by your declarations you invalidate those of us who DO date "feminist tree-hugging" men (and no one but) based on your personal perceptions.

Nice.

[announcer voice] And straight out of left field come VW! [/announcer voice]

Thank you!

~bow~

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MXH
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30 May 2012, 7:39 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Rather, the thread is simply asserting (shocker) that women want to be loved for themselves and not their looks, and maybe that should be taken into account by men who complain here?

I dont think its so easy to blart out and blame men on this problem. Last i checked we arent the ones that spend 30+ minutes a day pampering ourselves to impress the opposite sex. Women have allowed this sort of behavior to occur. Most men dont even know what a woman looks like without her makeup. If you want to end this sort of crap behavior you cant blame the other side into changing, your side has to take the charge. I know you and the 4 other girls that always do will make 3 pages of rants and find ways to blame some "patriarchy" on everything but fact of the matter is I see women enforcing the stereotypes against them every day. Should they exist? Hell no, especially since theyre things that men experience too. Every guy that says women cant drive probably wouldnt know what a turn signal was if it was flashing at him.

edgewaters
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30 May 2012, 7:39 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

^So by your declarations you invalidate those of us who DO date "feminist tree-hugging" men (and no one but) based on your personal perceptions.

Nice.

I don't think the thread is an indictment of primary (IE, looks-based) attraction, which, btw, doesn't represent the totality or maybe even the majority of initial attraction- seeing someone "across the room" implies meeting someone at either a social gathering or in public. Romantic relationships develop from people working together, from online sites and forums, from school, and more.

Rather, the thread is simply asserting (shocker) that women want to be loved for themselves and not their looks.

I think he's saying he hears more women claiming to be like you, or expressing values like yours, than actually exist, in his experience. This is my experience too. Not that you don't exist but ... there are those who falsely claim similar values, because they sound more palatable than their actual values, or for other reasons (eg they want to attract beta males for relationships and alphas for sex). I do think this is a phenomenon among women although it certainly does not hold true for all individuals, and I am not doubting you are genuine in what you say.

This is another one where I think we can remove gender from the equation. I am sure women are familiar with a similar phenomenon, on the part of men.

MXH
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30 May 2012, 7:42 pm

edgewaters wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses
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30 May 2012, 7:46 pm

MXH wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Rather, the thread is simply asserting (shocker) that women want to be loved for themselves and not their looks, and maybe that should be taken into account by men who complain here?

There aren't "sides", there is dominant culture that influences everyone's behavior.

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MXH
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30 May 2012, 8:00 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

MXH wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Rather, the thread is simply asserting (shocker) that women want to be loved for themselves and not their looks, and maybe that should be taken into account by men who complain here?

There aren't "sides", there is dominant culture that influences everyone's behavior.

Theres sides, if anything more than there should be. They do spawn from culture but nothing is ever done to actually fix them.

edgewaters
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30 May 2012, 8:14 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

There aren't "sides", there is dominant culture that influences everyone's behavior.

I do get it ... and I think it's a useful concept for an in-depth, high level understanding with the historical context included. But language colours perceptions. My way of thinking is to eliminate all nonessential gender-based distinctions and I aim to use language that serves that purpose. Conceptually I think it's valid but ... prone to misunderstandings, and doesn't really suit my own approach of neutralizing as much as possible.

ValentineWiggin
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30 May 2012, 8:15 pm

MXH wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Rather, the thread is simply asserting (shocker) that women want to be loved for themselves and not their looks, and maybe that should be taken into account by men who complain here?

Wait. Women undertake extreme means and time to change their aesthetic (because they know they're judged primarily based on looks)
and that's somehow women's fault? (Believe me, ripping out hair, putting chemicals on one's face and bleaching one's a**hole don't constitute "pampering".)

You don't seem to know what the hell the patriarchy is, if you feel it's a sex-specific entity. The institutions which create that type of female "beauty" in order to SELL PRODUCTS is the an example of the patriarchy, as well as the men who buy into that image as inherently more attractive.

There is a very high opportunity cost for women who refuse to participate in beauty ideals forced on them culturally. My personal opinion is that women who refuse to:
shave
wear makeup
wear bras
wear high heels
thrash off any fat someone might find offensive
etc
will face extreme interpersonal consequences, and find their chances of attracting and keeping a mate nearly-eliminated in a lot of cases.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 30 May 2012, 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ValentineWiggin
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30 May 2012, 8:23 pm

MXH wrote:

I can only speak for myself.
I date geeks/nerds/whatever you want to call a "bottom rung" male in whatever en vogue "ranking" bullshittery is now popular with the PUA crowd, almost exclusively (two of my exes took off work when a recent video game came out) and NONE of these men had any shortage of dating experience. Most are Aspie-ish, and very few are socially-adept. Someone's dating the men who aren't the archetypal macho kind, maybe it's just not women certain men notice?

MXH
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30 May 2012, 8:33 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

MXH wrote:

I never said macho was good and geek was bad did I? you're jumping to conclusion already. Theres plenty of macho "losers" and geek "alphas". What type of societal grouping these men fall into has little to do with how they fare romantically.

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30 May 2012, 8:45 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

That school of thought is what continues the avenue of "being judged primarily by their looks". If the women werent fighting each other so hard to have to take out all the stops in a hope that a guy comes to her (which is an entirely other rant btw) maybe they should try to, you know, find a way of expressing themselves in a manner which allows the men that dont fall under this assumed stereotype of being interested in looks alone.

Or, women could start taking a more active role in the dating game? *GASP*

Patriarchy, being the belief that men being the head class and superior to women has little to do with the beauty industries dash for cash. You want to know what other industries strive on selling things for profit? All of them. Hell, youve not even been exposed to what completely "sex sells" advertising is like living in bubble america. If anything you should consider yourself extremely lucky to live in a country that not only are you equal to men but also have the choice of wether you want to follow social norms. I wish I could even come to explain how things are where im from. And guess what, even where women are graded much harshly than you ever will be and are seen literally as everything you pretend they are in the states Ive always found a lack of them complaining and an abundance of them acting

ValentineWiggin
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30 May 2012, 9:28 pm

MXH wrote:

Patriarchy, being the belief that men being the head class and superior to women has little to do with the beauty industries dash for cash.

Nope.

We need to look up some definitions, I see.

The fact that women aren't judged by men on looks alone doesn't change the fact that it's still the primary way a lot of men "assess" us,
and so more than a bit absurd for judging women for acting accordingly.

Women still would hope that ultimately they will come to be loved for themselves, not their aesthetics (doesn't everyone)?

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 30 May 2012, 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MXH
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30 May 2012, 9:31 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

MXH wrote:

Patriarchy, being the belief that men being the head class and superior to women has little to do with the beauty industries dash for cash.

Nope.

We need to look up some definitions, I see.

patriarchy
1. a community in which the father or oldest male is the supreme authority, and descent is traced through the male line.
2. government by males, with one as supreme.

Kjas
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30 May 2012, 9:32 pm

As per women taking on a more active role when it comes to dating, you're right. I know a few women who manage to do so successfully, but most who try to end up failing miserably.

Unfortunately, it is society enforcing those rules, not just women and not just men. Women who break those social rules often receive a fair amount of backlash and failure, just like men do when they refuse to engage or play by those same rules.

MXH wrote:

Hell, youve not even been exposed to what completely "sex sells" advertising is like living in bubble america. If anything you should consider yourself extremely lucky to live in a country that not only are you equal to men but also have the choice of wether you want to follow social norms. I wish I could even come to explain how things are where im from. And guess what, even where women are graded much harshly than you ever will be and are seen literally as everything you pretend they are in the states Ive always found a lack of them complaining and an abundance of them acting

I agree with you here completely.

I have never seen women here judged the way they are back home. And I don't see women back home complain about it either. They make the best of what they have, and try another, often ingenious, way to get around other things they don't like or that could hold them back.

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ValentineWiggin
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30 May 2012, 9:38 pm

MXH wrote:

Hell, youve not even been exposed to what completely "sex sells" advertising is like living in bubble america. If anything you should consider yourself extremely lucky to live in a country that not only are you equal to men but also have the choice of wether you want to follow social norms. I wish I could even come to explain how things are where im from. And guess what, even where women are graded much harshly than you ever will be and are seen literally as everything you pretend they are in the states Ive always found a lack of them complaining and an abundance of them acting

A matter of opinion.

In terms of who holds power societally, it's apparent that women are not men's equals at all.
A meaningful conversation about what "choice" means would involve the consequences of opting out of social norms,
and, I said, those costs tend to be very high.

An odd standard to hold any society to, that not of women being men's equals practically, but not as bad as OTHER society's treatment of them. You seem to have a lot of vitriol, personally, to dare lecture me as a vagina-owner on what I should consider myself lucky for, for the egregious offense of having disagreed with you. :roll:

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 30 May 2012, 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MXH
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30 May 2012, 9:40 pm

Kjas wrote:

Fail miserably by what standard? If by that they are emotionaly traumatized that everyone they went to wasnt immediatly glad and loving to them, then i have to say congratulations on knowing what its like being a guy. Having to go through dozens and hundreds of girls looking for not just one that is right but also one that will give you a chance is MUCH harder than it sounds.

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Let me guess, you're south american?

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