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Being a "lady"

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hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 12:25 am

nah!! !! ! seriously, what do many americans feel pride about? hmmmm how about free speech that's *actually* free? (canadian law protects groups over individuals in terms of free speech). or.... strong military? technology? ivy league education? there are many things that i consider to be sources of pride (fairly) for american people.

of course, individual results may vary, but overarching cultures are different across nations to some degree.


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MXH
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18 Jul 2012, 12:25 am

hyperlexian wrote:
i didn't ever say canadians were better. you pointedly ignored my example of a historically canadian bad behaviour, and first nations people are often still mistreated in the present day (both individually and institutionally). it's a giant blind spot that we pretend doesn't exist. nothing "empowering" about that.

low crime doesn't equal politeness. we don't lock our doors either, but it has nothing to do with saying "please" or "thank you"

we make a point of being extremely polite as part of our national identity, but it doesn't necessarily make us better people. surely there is something that many americans may pride themselves on?

Its still a betterment. Its like gloating about a ferrari then saying "but it only gets 12mpg". you're still gloating, one small point isnt going to make it any less so.

I never claimed it did, but i do remember cashiers knowing us by a first name basis and asking how the family was doing, people going out of their way to help you, holding doors and that sort of stuff hapening too. It was cartoonish, it was scary for the first couple of months to be honest. I did not expect it out of that place. If not for a lack of things to do id move there any day of the week.

So are you polite to seem polite or are you polite because you care about others? (when i say you i dont mean you personally). Anyhow in all cases i think our foreign policy should go back to reagan style. You know back when people were afraid of f*****g with americans. We need to start doing more of this
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hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 12:28 am

MXH wrote:
So are you polite to seem polite or are you polite because you care about others? (when i say you i dont mean you personally). Anyhow in all cases i think our foreign policy should go back to reagan style. You know back when people were afraid of f***ing with americans. We need to start doing more of this

and that ^^^ is somehow different from my supposed "gloating"?


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edgewaters
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18 Jul 2012, 12:39 am

meems wrote:
I live in Texas and I've gone on loads of roadtrips to visit family on the opposite end of the U.S.(north, New York, Minnesota etc.) and save for densely populated metropolitian areas, people get more and more polite as we head North. We would drive because we had so many people to visit along the way. When I was younger my family INSISTED that we drive up to Canada a few times and I was convinced everyone was stoned in Canada because they were so frickin nice every time we went there.


Hmmm .... interesting .... see when I've gone south, what I've noticed is that people tend to be equally generous and even more outgoing or extroverted as you go south, but less tolerant and quicker to take offence (MXH is definately not helping to dispel that impression! He's really defeating his own argument; "easygoing" is not a word that comes to mind here, at all!! !). I wonder sometimes if it's something to do with hours of sunlight or temperature or something, with the difference just getting amplified when you cross national boundaries because of the national cultures being emergent from the population.

You can sort of see a difference in culture like that in Europe, too. Fins, Swedes, Icelanders - there's a certain difference in their national characters that diverges from the national/cultural character of Italians, Spanish, and the Balkans. Maybe we spend more time indoors so we learn to be a bit more tolerant and less quick to take offence, at the same time become less extroverted because of the close quarters as well. Sort of an adaptation to being in closer proximity more, so we don't end up like those experiments where they show rats forced into too close quarters for too long, going berserk on each other.



MXH
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18 Jul 2012, 12:45 am

hyperlexian wrote:
MXH wrote:
So are you polite to seem polite or are you polite because you care about others? (when i say you i dont mean you personally). Anyhow in all cases i think our foreign policy should go back to reagan style. You know back when people were afraid of f***ing with americans. We need to start doing more of this

and that ^^^ is somehow different from my supposed "gloating"?


its different because im not saying im better than you. Im just letting you know not to mess with me.



edgewaters
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18 Jul 2012, 12:48 am

Heh. Yup. Keeps doing it too. Bombs, guns, "you're not better than me!! !", "don't mess with me!" etc etc

Not exactly the image of laid-back and easygoing, which is what most people seem to be referring to when they talk about our politeness.



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18 Jul 2012, 12:51 am

edgewaters wrote:
meems wrote:
I live in Texas and I've gone on loads of roadtrips to visit family on the opposite end of the U.S.(north, New York, Minnesota etc.) and save for densely populated metropolitian areas, people get more and more polite as we head North. We would drive because we had so many people to visit along the way. When I was younger my family INSISTED that we drive up to Canada a few times and I was convinced everyone was stoned in Canada because they were so frickin nice every time we went there.


Hmmm .... interesting .... see when I've gone south, what I've noticed is that people tend to be equally generous and even more outgoing or extroverted as you go south, but less tolerant and quicker to take offence (MXH is definately not helping to dispel that impression! He's really defeating his own argument; "easygoing" is not a word that comes to mind here, at all!! !). I wonder sometimes if it's something to do with hours of sunlight or temperature or something, with the difference just getting amplified when you cross national boundaries because of the national cultures being emergent from the population.

You can sort of see a difference in culture like that in Europe, too. Fins, Swedes, Icelanders - there's a certain difference in their national characters that diverges from the national/cultural character of Italians, Spanish, and the Balkans. Maybe we spend more time indoors so we learn to be a bit more tolerant and less quick to take offence, at the same time become less extroverted because of the close quarters as well. Sort of an adaptation to being in closer proximity more, so we don't end up like those experiments where they show rats forced into too close quarters for too long, going berserk on each other.


Theres a term for that, southern hospitality. And im not trying to dispel that impression because for starters im not native from these parts, and second because for this one time im retaliating against something said to prove apoint ive been making for months now. That generalizations are perfectly fine if they make you feel better. Its neutralto negative ones that always get called out. And ive been calling out all positive ones for the past year or so. Why? Because we aparently hate generalizations.



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18 Jul 2012, 12:56 am

edgewaters wrote:
Heh. Yup. Keeps doing it too. Bombs, guns, "you're not better than me!! !", "don't mess with me!" etc etc

Not exactly the image of laid-back and easygoing, which is what most people seem to be referring to when they talk about our politeness.


its easy to be polite and laidback/easygoing when you dont have people jumping out of their way to be rude to you.

I had a french guy give me s**t about being american and americans with wars. I firstly told him as a frenchman he has nothing to call us out on wars since the french were part of the 100 years war. A f*****g war for 100 years, can you even imagine that s**t? Also because we twice had to go over and help keep the germans back in their place (i feel we shouldnt do it a third time), and then he countered with american military testing. By which i responded on how the french test their nuclear bombs in tahiti. In the end for someone proclaiming americans to be rude he was the one that heard english and came to b***h at me, and i rightly served him. Thats why we cant be easy going. Because we are being picked on.



edgewaters
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18 Jul 2012, 1:01 am

MXH wrote:
Theres a term for that, southern hospitality. And im not trying to dispel that impression because for starters im not native from these parts, and second because for this one time im retaliating against something said to prove apoint ive been making for months now. That generalizations are perfectly fine if they make you feel better. Its neutralto negative ones that always get called out. And ive been calling out all positive ones for the past year or so. Why? Because we aparently hate generalizations.


Generalizations are necessary in language - we couldn't talk about much of anything otherwise. Pretty much any statement you can make about more than a single thing, is a generalization.

The problem is when people state generalizations as absolutes, and don't leave room for variation. Like using "all" when you should be using "in general".



meems
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18 Jul 2012, 1:02 am

I love Wrong Planet so much.



edgewaters
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18 Jul 2012, 1:02 am

MXH wrote:
its easy to be polite and laidback/easygoing when you dont have people jumping out of their way to be rude to you.


And they don't tend to be rude to you when you're polite and easygoing with them. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?



MXH
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18 Jul 2012, 1:03 am

edgewaters wrote:

Generalizations are necessary in language - we couldn't talk about much of anything otherwise. Pretty much any statement you can make about more than a single thing, is a generalization.

The problem is when people state generalizations as absolutes, and don't leave room for variation. Like using "all" when you should be using "in general".


which is what ive been telling the people making these call outs. But they wont have at it, so this is how we play now.



MXH
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18 Jul 2012, 1:06 am

edgewaters wrote:
MXH wrote:
its easy to be polite and laidback/easygoing when you dont have people jumping out of their way to be rude to you.


And they don't tend to be rude to you when you're polite and easygoing with them. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


umm what? you're obviously way over your head here. Thats like saying all black people love fried chicken, watermelon, grape soda, and menthol cigarettes. Just because theres some that do doesnt mean they all do. Yet they are usually stereotyped as such. Ive seen just as many rude foreign tourists as i have rude american tourists. Its simply a pissing game. And you're helping perpetuate it.



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18 Jul 2012, 1:10 am

meems wrote:
I love Wrong Planet so much.


Sarcasm, or for real? :)

I've lost track of who said what (didn't expect this to grow so fast!) but here's my take: "lady" comes from OE "hlaefdige," literally "loaf maid," but idiomatically meaning the wife of the hlaford = the manorial lord. In my opinion it's continued to carry those upper-class connotations up to the present day. To me it connotes a specific code of conduct involving correct etiquette and "gender-appropriate" behavior. (Someone mentioned sitting with legs together and wearing knee-length skirts-- this is exactly the mental picture I get!) I also think it carries a vague notion of sexual propriety; something like "he won't buy the cow if he gets the milk for free." For those reasons, I associate the term (and "classy" in much the same ways) with sexual and emotional repression and a lack of authenticity.

I respect all of the other connotations that people have listed though. It's interesting to think about how terms that get bantered about so lightly are actually very loaded with drastically differing meanings to different people :)


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hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 1:13 am

MXH wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
MXH wrote:
So are you polite to seem polite or are you polite because you care about others? (when i say you i dont mean you personally). Anyhow in all cases i think our foreign policy should go back to reagan style. You know back when people were afraid of f***ing with americans. We need to start doing more of this

and that ^^^ is somehow different from my supposed "gloating"?


its different because im not saying im better than you. Im just letting you know not to mess with me.

so... your way of countering the idea of Canadian politeness (not universal, of course), is to threaten me? :lol:

nonetheless, you made a generalisation about americans, and you seem to take pride in it. thank you for confirming my point.

(p.s. thank you, meems :oops: )


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DogsWithoutHorses
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18 Jul 2012, 1:15 am

in other news, a**holes gonna be a**holes

just for fun, maybe some people should look up past conflicts between the U.S. and Canada...

anyhow dual citizenship party at my birth certificate's house
as a place to be, I much prefer (some parts of) Canada
and as far as "street behavior" goes, it's much nicer

different cultures have different behavioral norms, why that is seemingly so difficult to grok or so easy to interpret in a weird crazy massive derail way I don't understand

similarly I'm baffled by the denial of the effect of context on language and insistence on blaming individuals for colloquialisms

this topic got weird


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