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Encountered a pair of Pick-Up Artists last night.

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octobertiger
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01 Nov 2013, 11:02 am

Not for me to be a fence sitter, but I think all three of you have a point. It takes all kinds. To say a woman is this or that or the other - it's just too simplistic.

People have varying amounts of will in different situations. And are a mix of desires, and internal battles. I'm sorry if I'm insulting anyone by stating the obvious.

When it comes down to it - we weren't there.

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leafplant wrote:
and have been a female a lot longer than you so have experienced all manner of things and have observed all manner or things.



When's Boo had the operation? Eh? I must have missed that :D

Agreed, good post.



Last edited by octobertiger on 01 Nov 2013, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shatbat
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01 Nov 2013, 11:06 am

I don't see anything particularly shallow about accepting advances from someone I like, and rejecting them from someone I don't. It's just called having preferences. I'm pretty sure women exist who only accept advances from hot guys. Good for them. But the majority of women I know only accept advances from men they like and trust. What do you suggest they should do, sleep with everyone who asks them to even if they don't like them and would end up the opposite of enjoying it?

Also, you are falling into the fundamental attribution bias, putting too much emphasis on someone's intrinsic characteristics, and too little on their surrounding situations. Situations can be very powerful, and controlling the situation gives a lot of power over the people who are in it.

Also, Shau, don't give up. The reasons someone might have to slow down physical intimacy are not necessarily bad ones. How much do you trust each other? What's the most intimate you two have been? What are the reasons she gives you?


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Last edited by Shatbat on 01 Nov 2013, 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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01 Nov 2013, 11:09 am

leafplant wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
octobertiger wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
There's a huge difference between being nice and being a stupid mindless bag of animal instincts.


Can you explain?



That's how Kjas and Leafplant are describing women: spineless, blinds and victims of their own instincts and of society that raised to be like this.

While I was saying that this woman chose, with full awarness, to be seduced by this guy and she chose to make out with him, otherwise her reaction would be totally different.

I am saying that women are humans with will and brains like men, while them are saying they are creatures with no will. It's ironic, but read their posts again, that's what they are saying.


As difficult as it is not to speak in generalisations, it causes all manner of problems.

Re: bold bit. We cannot make that call - we weren't there. I have been alive a lot longer than you and have been a female a lot longer than you so have experienced all manner of things and have observed all manner or things.

People are complicated and the society expectations don't help. Of course women have will - but the society by and large demands that they never openly display their will in a sexually explicit way (lest they be labelled whores).



You are talking contradictions.

First you say that the girl who pushes away players trying to kiss her and put their hands on her would be viewed by others (WHO are those others, Kjas didn't answer that) as a rude and bitchy, then you say that society would quickly label a girl as whore if she openly displays her will in sexual manner.



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01 Nov 2013, 11:15 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

You are talking contradictions.

First you say that the girl who pushes away players trying to kiss her and put their hands on her would be viewed by others (WHO are those others, Kjas didn't answer that) as a rude and bitchy, then you say that society would quickly label a girl as whore if she openly displays her will in sexual manner.


How is that a contradiction??



The_Face_of_Boo
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01 Nov 2013, 11:22 am

Shatbat wrote:
I don't see anything particularly shallow about accepting advances from someone I like, and rejecting them from someone I don't. It's just called having preferences. I'm pretty sure women exist who only accept advances from hot guys. Good for them. But the majority of women I know only accept advances from men they like and trust. What do you suggest they should do, sleep with everyone who asks them to even if they don't like them and would end up the opposite of enjoying it?

Also, you are falling into the fundamental attribution bias, putting too much emphasis on someone's intrinsic characteristics, and too little on their surrounding situations. Situations can be very powerful, and controlling the situation gives a lot of power over the people who are in it.

Also, Shau, don't give up. The reasons someone might have to slow down physical intimacy are not necessarily bad ones. How much do you trust each other? What's the most intimate you two have been? What are the reasons she gives you?


I think you people are putting words in Stalk's mouth, he didn't say that girls must sleep with everyone doing advances.

And we are not talking about normal advances, we are talking about sexual touching and kissing by a guy who's still basically a stranger, those are harrassements. Harrassement shouldn't become less harrassement if the guy happens to be hot.



The_Face_of_Boo
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01 Nov 2013, 11:29 am

leafplant wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

You are talking contradictions.

First you say that the girl who pushes away players trying to kiss her and put their hands on her would be viewed by others (WHO are those others, Kjas didn't answer that) as a rude and bitchy, then you say that society would quickly label a girl as whore if she openly displays her will in sexual manner.


How is that a contradiction??



It's a contradiction in what you claim that society expects from how a girl should behave; first you claim that society expects her to be very nice and passive to such sexual advances otherwise she would be labeled as rude then you say that society expects her to not display sexual desires because society would call her a whore.
But passively letting stranger guys kissing and touching her would be seen as an act of sexual display!

It's the second expectation which really exists, while the first one is porn.



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01 Nov 2013, 11:41 am

octobertiger wrote:
Not for me to be a fence sitter, but I think all three of you have a point. It takes all kinds. To say a woman is this or that or the other - it's just too simplistic.

People have varying amounts of will in different situations. And are a mix of desires, and internal battles. I'm sorry if I'm insulting anyone by stating the obvious.

When it comes down to it - we weren't there.

Quote:
leafplant wrote:
and have been a female a lot longer than you so have experienced all manner of things and have observed all manner or things.



When's Boo had the operation? Eh? I must have missed that :D

Agreed, good post.


Check my profile, Tiger. Teehee.



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01 Nov 2013, 11:46 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
leafplant wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

You are talking contradictions.

First you say that the girl who pushes away players trying to kiss her and put their hands on her would be viewed by others (WHO are those others, Kjas didn't answer that) as a rude and bitchy, then you say that society would quickly label a girl as whore if she openly displays her will in sexual manner.


How is that a contradiction??



It's a contradiction in what you claim that society expects from how a girl should behave; first you claim that society expects her to be very nice and passive to such sexual advances otherwise she would be labeled as rude then you say that society expects her to not display sexual desires because society would call her a whore.
But passively letting stranger guys kissing and touching her would be seen as an act of sexual display!

It's the second expectation which really exists, while the first one is porn.


Um. I sort of see where you are coming from. You can't just let people touch you up just coz they feel like it obviously, but as Shatbat said
Quote:
Situations can be very powerful, and controlling the situation gives a lot of power over the people who are in it.
and this is what I was alluding to. When I was younger I have been in tons of situations where guys took advantage of me because I didn't really know what was what. Like you try and push a guy away and he goes all Whats the matter, I am just being friendly, why are you so cold and nasty, are you not a friendly person etc. Of course, I know better now but some women never learn. I am not saying it's not possible for women to be manipulative, of course it is - you cannot call a situation based on a few sentences observation from a third party - was I think my very convoluted point.



octobertiger
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01 Nov 2013, 11:46 am

You're a woman?

No way.

TIGER PROGRAMMING MALFUNCTION - ERROR SYSTEM CHECK -
FOLLOW THE THREE READED HEAD DUCK.



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01 Nov 2013, 11:58 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I think you people are putting words in Stalk's mouth, he didn't say that girls must sleep with everyone doing advances.

And we are not talking about normal advances, we are talking about sexual touching and kissing by a guy who's still basically a stranger, those are harrassements. Harrassement shouldn't become less harrassement if the guy happens to be hot.


He didn't say so, but it was one possible logical outcome of the original statement. If there is something wrong with women being selective then to make it right they should stop being selective, which means they either sleep with everyone or with no-one. Neither of those two are desirable options, therefore selectiveness is a good thing.

I'd say harassment would depend on whether the advances are welcome or not, instead of whether the other person is a stranger or not. Friends can harass (or worse) and strangers can be welcome. If a hot guy is on average more welcome in that kind of situation that a non-hot one, well, that almost goes right in hand with the definition of hotness, and is a fact of life. Kissing and touching is not sex, someone willing to do the first two may not be willing to do the latter. And again, sometimes those advances may not be completely welcome, but the situation becomes too overwhelming to fight.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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01 Nov 2013, 12:10 pm

Shatbat wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I think you people are putting words in Stalk's mouth, he didn't say that girls must sleep with everyone doing advances.

And we are not talking about normal advances, we are talking about sexual touching and kissing by a guy who's still basically a stranger, those are harrassements. Harrassement shouldn't become less harrassement if the guy happens to be hot.


He didn't say so, but it was one possible logical outcome of the original statement. If there is something wrong with women being selective then to make it right they should stop being selective, which means they either sleep with everyone or with no-one. Neither of those two are desirable options, therefore selectiveness is a good thing.

I'd say harassment would depend on whether the advances are welcome or not, instead of whether the other person is a stranger or not. Friends can harass (or worse) and strangers can be welcome. If a hot guy is on average more welcome in that kind of situation that a non-hot one, well, that almost goes right in hand with the definition of hotness, and is a fact of life. Kissing and touching is not sex, someone willing to do the first two may not be willing to do the latter. And again, sometimes those advances may not be completely welcome, but the situation becomes too overwhelming to fight.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY[/youtube]



The_Face_of_Boo
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01 Nov 2013, 12:14 pm

octobertiger wrote:
You're a woman?

No way.

TIGER PROGRAMMING MALFUNCTION - ERROR SYSTEM CHECK -
FOLLOW THE THREE READED HEAD DUCK.



Why else do you think I was calling you Tiger? ;) :-*



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01 Nov 2013, 12:26 pm

This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it on copyright grounds.
---------------------------------------
Sorry about that

Guess you'll have to explain my your point by writing then :lol:


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01 Nov 2013, 12:34 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Why else do you think I was calling you Tiger? ;) :-*


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! :arrow: exit, pursued by a manwomanplacenta thing possibly intent on harassment.



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01 Nov 2013, 12:42 pm

Nevermind, googled it :lmao:

Eh, the women in the video might have been shallow, but they still have a right of self-ownership, and are neither obligated to date the unattractive one, nor not date the attractive one. And it was an exaggeration, anyway.

Anyway, now that I think about it I don't see how stating that women are shallow is relevant to the current discussion. Your main point seems to be: if women can't say no easily then they are either spineless or actually wanted it. We've been proposing an alternate explanation, that societal pressures and the strength of the situation can influence a woman's behaviour very strongly (and a man's too, for the sake of completeness). There are plenty of psychological studies and psychological literature that support this theory, plus the anecdotal evidence (I don't see what some people have against it, it is pretty useful) and logical reasoning of several people here. So what do you have to say about it?


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01 Nov 2013, 1:03 pm

The only situation I can see in Shau's story that the woman got turned on by this guy.
and she went for him.

So if your gf cheats on you and then tells you "sorry he was so smooth talker and the situation and ambiance made me to sit on his lap and my hand in his pants" would that make the cheat ok?

Leafplant claims that society is responsible for that, do American parents applause if some someone kisses forcefully their daughter and touches her boobs in front of them and would they punish her and call her rude if she slaps him? I think not.