aside from sperm, what good are men?

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02 Jul 2016, 10:07 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well the trouble is if you clearly don't fit into the typical female gender role its not forgiving at all, in my experience. Granted if anything it's improved in some ways since I've gotten older and am not stuck at public school around a bunch of social expectations and social pressure. Though I am concerned it will get in the way of work, if I get off of SSI...I mean a lot of the jobs people say a women can easily get, they mean a typical, confident women who knows how to do her make up and hair and look pretty for the customer or whatever. Not an androgynous, metalhead chick who has trouble with social interaction and doesn't know how to be 'fashionable' or whatever.

And I don't know if it would have been any easier or harder if I was male....that is too much of an if, hard to really imagine me as a guy trying to get a relationship.

I don't want to get into an argument about who has it worse, I've found a lot of your posts relateable which is why I remembered them in the first place. All I'm going to say is that male and female gender roles are both particularly hostile to men on the spectrum given what people's expectations are. Society in general is much more accepting of women that do not fit gender roles than men, that's just the truth and gender roles entail much more than just type of dress and your interests but rather things who initiates the relationship and who is the breadwinner and whether or not you are dating up or dating down and just how you interact with other people altogether. Men are expected to chase, make strong eye contact, strong handshakes, be able to provide & protect, all on top of being an "interesting fun guy", it all has an air of competition. Am I perceiving things wrongly? I don't think too many women are interested in 25 year old unemployed disabled depressed men that can't drive or do much of anything.

The majority of what you mentioned involves "getting laid."

However, the difficulty of an individual's life is determined by more factors than whether or not they can get laid.

I don't agree that much of any of that was about 'getting laid' and you won't see me on here all woe is me about not 'getting laid' because if that was my real issue I know a real simple solution that would save me a lot of anxiety and heartache. I feel like you are being very dismissive.

Jacoby
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02 Jul 2016, 10:28 am

hurtloam wrote:

I'm not going to argue about the differences either, but I think that what you wrote here is a cold, hard truth.

"Air of comepetition" sounds a bit too dramatic though, but I'm not going to argue semantics.

Yes, most women expect the man to make a move, organise a date, ask for a phone number. If she likes him and he doesn't do any of these things, she feels like he's not interested and she gets hurt.

If you've been told your whole life that men will show you that they like you, then that's what you expect. If you've experienced men behaving that way, you'll expect other men to behave that way if they like you. The quiet one who doesn't talk to you will be read as "not interested" and will be overlooked unless she's got the guts to make an effort herself and draw him out. But that takes a really strong woman.

On both sides men and women don't want to make a fool of themselves chasing someone who isn't interested. No one wants to get hurt if they can avoid it.

There's also the fact that if you are an independent woman, you aren't going to want a dependent man. If I found out a man was unemployed long term I'd probably question his executive functioning. I find life difficult enough. I don't want to have to remind someone to do basic things around the house or to go and pay a bill on time and that sort of thing. I've seen people in relationships like that and they are not happy. They stick it out because they do love the guy, but they are frustrated and depressed and stressed. Therapists tell them to leave for the sake of their own sanity, but they stay because they love the guy. Actually one did leave and she's with someone she's much happier with, the other 3 have stayed.

I'm lonely on my own, but not so lonely that I want to add more stress to my life by living with a dependent man.

If I ever do have a relationship where I'm living with someone I want them to be at least as responsible as me.

Would you then agree then that men on the spectrum are especially disabled at this fundamental aspect of human interaction involving gender roles relative to all women and even those on the spectrum? I think it is obvious, that doesn't mean it's all peaches and rainbows for everyone but it's like running the 40 yard dash against someone who gets 15 yard head start. Wouldn't this be a textbook example of 'female privilege or can't that possibly exist?

One thing I've noticed is that women on the spectrum, despite the advice they seem give all the guys here, tend to avoid men on the spectrum like the plague and I get it since why would anybody want a clone of someone with the exact same problems in the just as bad circumstances? Women date up whereas men don't, that might be a generalization but there is truth to it. Men on the spectrum are pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel as far what the male gender role and expectation is, where do you even look? There is no down.

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02 Jul 2016, 10:45 am

I don't know. I have 2 single female acqaintances on the spectrum. Both are in their early 40s and have never had a boyfriend. I have never had the audacity to ask them who exactly they have rejected and why. That would make them feel like I'm judging them.

"Hey gals, you're social skills are terrible and neither of you seem able to keep a full time job. Are you maybe single because you're too fussy? Give me a list of the guys you didn't really fancy that much, but you suspected were interested in you or who directly asked you out and I'll tell you why you should have accepted them anyway, because goodness knows you're far too weird and unattractive for a regular dude." </sarcasm>

Even then, would not-so high functioning guys go out with not-so high functioning women? Do they really have a "head-start". Especially if they aren't attractive (I don't know, I'm not attracted to women, so I haven't go a clue what men actually find attractive, but these 2 aren't what I consider pretty and neither are athletically fit).

Not all women date up. I know women who have husbands who are not as high functioning as them. So, yes, you are generalising.

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02 Jul 2016, 10:49 am

Sure, more normal people get a head start, but crossing the finish line first doesn't mean that you have "won."
There are some advantages to starting a serious relationship in your 30s, versus your 20s. Perhaps the biggest is sorting out your career and finances before getting seriously involved--trying to juggle a relationship and finances at the same time is a disaster for many couples--even those that have no issues in other areas. The second is the maturity to know what you really what want--which often isn't exactly what everyone else wants. Sure, you may want a healthy, athletic woman. But, it may take a while to realize that you are much better off with a down to earth basketball player rather than a prima donna gymnast used to being in the spotlight all the time.

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02 Jul 2016, 11:00 am

BTDT wrote:

That is such a good, positive, yet realistic comment.

BTDT wrote:

Sure, you may want a healthy, athletic woman. But, it may take a while to realize that you are much better off with a down to earth basketball player rather than a prima donna gymnast used to being in the spotlight all the time.

You lost me here, a basketball player isn't more fat and less healthy. That's still pretty good in terms of fitness and health.

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02 Jul 2016, 11:19 am

The Black Widow spider has found another use. They eat the male after mating. So protein can go on the list.

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02 Jul 2016, 11:27 am

Generalizing serves a purpose, it is not the high crime some make it out to be here. Why those women are alone I can't tell you but I have said that this natural advantage really fades after age 30, again folk knowledge but is it wrong? It really is biology when it comes down to it, those peak fertile years are coincidentally the same years that women have most suitors. We're just evolved apes, not even the nice kind but chimps, is that an overly cynical way of looking at humanity or do you think it's accurate?

To answer your question tho, I couldn't possibly hold something against somebody that I'm guilty of myself. The golden rule is to treat others the way you want to be treated, does that answer your question? I know Katie says she finds less than 1 in 10 guys attractive, I hope that's not how most women feel altho I couldn't put an exact number on it myself but it would be way more than that for women to me at least. Mind you I am not a big person, I'm 140lbs soaking wet right now so as shallow as it is to say I am not physically attracted to obese people(I don't think they're too interested in me either to be fair) but there is huge range of attractive body types and I really don't feel looks are the most important factor. In all honesty, I'd say I am intimidated by the cheerleader or model types so I really don't think I have a case of unrealistic expectations. Probably the most attractive thing would be somebody that actually likes you, more than anything.

Not all but most!! ! It makes sense, if I had a daughter I'd want her to date up too. It's just biology!

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02 Jul 2016, 11:34 am

hurtloam wrote:

BTDT wrote:

You lost me here, a basketball player isn't more fat and less healthy. That's still pretty good in terms of fitness and health.

Tall women basketball players have trouble finding dates. I recall a story about one tall mom who forbid her very tall son from dating short women based on all the trouble she had dating.

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02 Jul 2016, 11:43 am

I imagine tall women basketball players are probably most attracted to tall male athletes most of who of who probably don't have a problem getting dates. Would a woman that is 6'2" be interested in a guy that is 5'7"? Probably not.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:04 pm

BTDT wrote:

hurtloam wrote:

BTDT wrote:

You lost me here, a basketball player isn't more fat and less healthy. That's still pretty good in terms of fitness and health.

Tall women basketball players have trouble finding dates. I recall a story about one tall mom who forbid her very tall son from dating short women based on all the trouble she had dating.

If they accept to date shorter then I am sure they won't have much trouble.

But I bet they don't.

If they eliminate 95% of male population because they want men very tall like themselves, then of course they're gonna have trouble to find date - duh.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:12 pm

Jacoby wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

The majority of what you mentioned involves "getting laid."

However, the difficulty of an individual's life is determined by more factors than whether or not they can get laid.

You're content to "dismiss" women's issues. So far, the main "men's issues" you've mentioned revolve around sex/dating/romance, and, the simple truth is, there's more than sex/dating/romance issues that make a person's life "difficult."

Additionally, dating men isn't exactly as easy and care-free as some of the guys here seem to think.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:16 pm

^ you're right that dating men isn't care free.

But *all* bisexual girls I knew told me that dating girls is overall much harder - harder to find dates with, harder to maintain.

All of them.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:17 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

BTDT wrote:

hurtloam wrote:

BTDT wrote:

You lost me here, a basketball player isn't more fat and less healthy. That's still pretty good in terms of fitness and health.

Tall women basketball players have trouble finding dates. I recall a story about one tall mom who forbid her very tall son from dating short women based on all the trouble she had dating.

I'm 5"10, my mother is 5"11, my aunt in 6ft, and my sister is 6"2.

Trying to find shorter men who aren't insecure about having a taller girlfriend isn't exactly a breeze. They pretty much had to stick with trying to find taller men.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:28 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

^ you're right that dating men isn't care free.

But *all* bisexual girls I knew told me that dating girls is overall much harder - harder to find dates with, harder to maintain.

All of them.

Well, let's see.....

Married men live longer than single men, but the same isn't true for married women for whom their life expectancy is increased by friendships with other women, not romantic relationships with men. After getting out of long-term-relationships, men report feelings of lingering depression and despondence, while women report feeling relieved. Most divorces are initiated by women. Hell, the oldest women in Scotland at 106 years (and a non-married virgin) gave her advice for living a long, happy life which was essentially, "Eat right, exercise, and stay away from men."

I was friends with a marriage councilor who informed me that the majority of her clients come in because the wife is wanting a divorce on account of her husband is basically just another child she needs to care for, and she's tired of dumping her emotions into the human equivalent of a black hole.

Based on the aforementioned, women may receive the bigger financial benefit from relationships, men receive the bigger emotional benefit.

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02 Jul 2016, 12:30 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

^ you're right that dating men isn't care free.

But *all* bisexual girls I knew told me that dating girls is overall much harder - harder to find dates with, harder to maintain.

All of them.

Ah. But wouldn't it be more difficult to find another woman who is attracted to women rather than a man who is attracted to women?

Jacoby
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02 Jul 2016, 12:36 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

How am I dismissing women's issues and where am I saying that is the only thing making people's lives difficult? That's nonsense and you are putting words in my mouth. The 'men's issues' I bring up on this forum revolve around relationships, what else are they suppose to be about? What is the purpose of this subforum other than that?

I'd say I've been pretty candid about myself, the difficulties I have, and what is holding me back. I think you have the wrong guy.

Also be my guest and explain the difficulties, maybe we'll learn something

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