How to encourage proper communication

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rdos
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04 Sep 2016, 6:58 am

lidsmichelle wrote:

rdos wrote:

lidsmichelle wrote:

Actually it is cultural. Emotions are linked to showing weakness culturally and we're very against showing weakness in the United States. Being vulnerable is generally considered a bad thing here.

So yeah, a lot of it is cultural.

No, it's not. Showing and having emotions has nothing to do with wanting to discuss them. I agree that in some cultures, people try to avoid showing emotions, and it can also be gender based. This is not much different from the ABA training programs where they try to hide stims.

The evidence that people don't want to (or have a hard time to) discuss emotions lies in the link with neurodiversity. ND people are brought up in the same culture as NTs, so should show no difference here. Since they do, it's not cultural.

No offense but you're wrong. Considering how many NT men avoid discussing their feelings as well it IS cultural.

Neurodiversity is a spectrum, which means that you cannot discard something as cultural just because you know some exceptions to the rule. All that counts is the actual prevalences of a trait, and in this case, it is higher among NDs than NTs, which makes it NOT cultural.

Also, just as boo also pointed out, if a trait is the same in all cultures, then it is NOT cultural by definition, regardless if it is different between genders. Because we cannot assume that every difference between the genders that is not physical is cultural. That's just bad science.

Hopper
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04 Sep 2016, 7:30 am

Don't tell the world how/what you think it is. Take it as it is. Attend to the particular and concrete, rather than the reified abstract.

Remember: bottom up rather than top down, and circles rather than lines.

Two perspective tricks that will help you take the variety and plasticity of the world in your stride, and keep you from shaking a fist at all creation as you stubbornly insist it should conform to your theories.

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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.

The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Sep 2016, 7:40 am

I don't know wheher it's cultural or biological.
But it's certainly not only an American thing.
If it's cultural then it's something developed in all cultures.

Correct me if I am mistaken: there's no culture on earth that doesn't have the "man up!" attitude toward boys.

Please point me to a culture on Earth which is not like that.

rdos
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04 Sep 2016, 9:18 am

Hopper wrote:

Remember: bottom up rather than top down, and circles rather than lines.

Some people think "bottom up" is the best, and others think "top down". Personally, I think you must use a mixture of those methods, and that is regardless if we talk about psychology or programming. Bottom up misses the whole while top down misses the details, neither of which is good.

Hopper wrote:

Two perspective tricks that will help you take the variety and plasticity of the world in your stride, and keep you from shaking a fist at all creation as you stubbornly insist it should conform to your theories.

FYI, the neanderthal theory used the "top down" approach to define the hypothesis for further research, and then Aspie Quiz used the "bottom up" approach to define the particular traits involved in neurodiversity. Feminism and sociology have no hypothesis whatsoever rather are based on a conjecture: "the only gender difference that is biological are physical characteristics". Such a conjecture is not scientific, and therefore feminism and sociology are not science, rather about wishful thinking.

lidsmichelle
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04 Sep 2016, 9:39 am

rdos wrote:

lidsmichelle wrote:

Yes, and evinced by women MRAs, women can be absolutely vile. Shrink4Men is a misogynistic site that associates with MRA publications such as AVFM lol. MRAs and the entire mansophere at large are disgusting and hateful.

So if I claim that feminism, which is about the same thing, just from the female perspective, is disgusting and hateful, I assume you won't complain?

In fact, this is why I will never become a feminist.

They aren't the same thing. Have you ever been on MRA websites? Most of it is articles on why raping women is ok and how they should be allowed to hit women. Or "if I pay for dinner she owes me sex." That kind of thing.

So no, it's not the same thing. Nice try though.

And women are also more disadvantaged than men so like... No.

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lidsmichelle
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04 Sep 2016, 9:50 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Modern hunter-gatherer societies. They're generally fairly egalitarian considering their lifestyle.

Hopper
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04 Sep 2016, 10:06 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

It's both, and more. In this example, going by your proposal/perspective, culture is doing the job of biology. In any culture, there is a counter-culture. Nothing is straight forward. We're weird creatures.

rdos wrote:

'Top down' can be useful, and I wouldn't throw it out, but I meant in such a case as here, where we are (ostensibly!) trying to help OP create better communication with her boyfriend. It's useful to offer, 'well, some men don't like talking about their feelings', but if that's not the case (as OP has told us it isn't) then it simply doesn't offer any help in this particular matter, and insisting that it's definitely the case for all men is taking the piss.

rdos wrote:

"There are gender differences other than physical characteristics which are are biological" is also conjecture, surely?

I'll go you one better/worse. There are no genders for there to be differences between, except insofar as human culture has come up with these ideas and long tried to bolt them onto biology.

'Feminism' and 'sociology' can be as scientific (or otherwise) as the notion of 'neurodiversity'. Depends on how you use them.

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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.

rdos
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04 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

lidsmichelle wrote:

rdos wrote:

lidsmichelle wrote:

According to Wikipedia's definition, they are indeed the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement

Or do you claim that men are not discriminated against in family and parenting issues?

rdos
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04 Sep 2016, 10:33 am

Hopper wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

No, it's not at all culture that is doing the job. The "man up" attitude is biology, and so is working on men in all cultures, which makes it all biology.

Hopper wrote:

'Feminism' and 'sociology' can be as scientific (or otherwise) as the notion of 'neurodiversity'. Depends on how you use them.

None of them can be scientific when they are based on postulates that are known to be false, and they cannot be discarded because these conjectures are built-into the concepts.

As for neurodiversity, this cannot be a scientific field of research if you define it in terms of sociology. That's why Aspie Quiz defines it based on factor analysis, which is a scientific concept.

BTDT
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04 Sep 2016, 10:34 am

It occurs to me that your lover isn't your therapist--while expressing emotions is a good thing--ranting on and on isn't likely to help build a relationship.

lidsmichelle
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04 Sep 2016, 10:42 am

BTDT wrote:

It occurs to me that your lover isn't your therapist--while expressing emotions is a good thing--ranting on and on isn't likely to help build a relationship.

And when exactly did I say I was doing this? Y'all sure love jumping to conclusions.

lidsmichelle
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04 Sep 2016, 10:45 am

rdos wrote:

lidsmichelle wrote:

rdos wrote:

lidsmichelle wrote:

They aren't actually. When men attempt to get parental custody they are more likely to get it. The reason women get custody more often is because men don't contest that often. Generally the more financially stable parent would be given more consideration, and men tend to make more money than women.

Also sociology is a legitimate thing and hasn't been proven wrong. Please cite actual sources, not more of your weird, unfounded theories that you somehow believe are scientific based on your own personal experience.

Also, according to Wikipedia, which anyone can edit lol.

Last edited by lidsmichelle on 04 Sep 2016, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Sep 2016, 10:48 am

lidsmichelle wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Modern hunter-gatherer societies. They're generally fairly egalitarian considering their lifestyle.

No, not at all.

This is a myth that got popular in feminist circles, but it's not true.

Men have to be hunters in those societies - while women gatherers, so it is still a gender-based division of roles.
And I doubt that crying is acceptable for hunters.

rdos
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04 Sep 2016, 11:47 am

lidsmichelle wrote:

They aren't actually. When men attempt to get parental custody they are more likely to get it. The reason women get custody more often is because men don't contest that often.

What a load of crap. Men know they are unlikely to get custody, so they only attempt to get it under unusual circumstances, like when the mother has some problems. The proof of equality here is that half the custody cases goes to MEN, and anything else is discrimination.

lidsmichelle wrote:

Generally the more financially stable parent would be given more consideration, and men tend to make more money than women.

No, generally, the mother would get custody, because caring for babies and children is thought to be the role of women, and feminism does nothing to prevent this because it is not in their interest.

lidsmichelle wrote:

Also sociology is a legitimate thing and hasn't been proven wrong.

Sociology might be legitimate, but it disqualifies as science.

Hopper
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04 Sep 2016, 12:03 pm

Boy, how I hate monistic reductionism.

rdos wrote:

Hopper wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

No, it's not at all culture that is doing the job. The "man up" attitude is biology, and so is working on men in all cultures, which makes it all biology.

Then everything is biology. Men being violent is biology. Men being non-violent is biology. Men telling other men to 'man up' is biology. Men telling those 'man up' men to stop being dickheads is also biology. Women wanting kids is biology. Women not wanting kids is biology. It's all biology. Now, instead of kicking against this idea and trying to question-beg your way to parceling off certain behaviours as 'biology' and others as 'not biology', instead broaden your concept and understanding of biology, and you'll start to get close to the truth.

It's biology all the way down and back up again, such that citing 'biology' as some sort of argument clincher is meaningless and futile. This is actually very close to my beliefs, and I'm glad you're agreeing with me.

[edit for typo]

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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.

Last edited by Hopper on 04 Sep 2016, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Sep 2016, 12:47 pm

To correct myself, I just recalled that women of Aeta people do take the role of hunter as men too.

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