Self-loathing and relationships

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Since that last line was likely directed at me, I'll respond to it.

IMO, it is somewhat wrong, and people should make some sort of effort not to be persistently negative. To themselves, in their homes, in their thoughts, to their family, to their neighbours, at their jobs, in their classrooms, around their friends, on Facebook, on forums - even this one.

People get depressed. Some remain depressed for many years. But that doesn't negate the fact that they can make an effort not to A L W A Y S be so negative, even in their own threads here on this forum - a support forum. It's not healthy to consistently be so negative, not for the poster, and not for anyone else reading it. YES, I think people should be able to vent their frustrations and depressive negativity here on this forum - probably more so than on forums for any other subject matter aside from perhaps a depression & suicidal thoughts specific forum, but that doesn't change the fact that I also think people should make an effort not to A L W A Y S be so negative with their posts. Not just for my benefit of reading something positive, but literally for their own health, as if they make an effort to limit their negativity they may consciously create the opportunity to think some better thoughts, and bit by bit it'll contribute to their healing process. Just the small act of being considerate of themselves and others in trying to limit how negative their words are on this forum could compound into big changes in their lives.

I literally see no good reason not to try to limit one's negativity on these forums, or elsewhere in their life. If there are good reasons not to, please, do tell, I'm all ears.

Learned helplessness is not really something that can be helped, like a person cannot help it if they have learned helplessness. One can work to change it, I have and still am as its something I have certainly struggled with...a lot of it to do with being bullied and getting the message I should just deal with it without getting upset. Or like sometimes I found if I reacted to it I would be the one getting in trouble. Also my parents didn't get along and no matter how much I tried to make them get along I couldn't change the situation of their conflict.

Also some bullying is more along the lines of acting out, I am sure I exhibited some of that growing up because I was frustrated. I wasn't abused at home or anything but it did get frustrating always getting picked on at school. But that is not always the case, some people know exactly what they are doing and it is very intentional...or maybe they don't want to end up becoming a target for it themselves so they side with the bullies.

I am in a better state of mind now, but I still remember what it was like before that.

I fell into a sever psychotic depression when I was 20 partly over screwing up my 1st realtionship & partly over other life circumstances. My parents were on my back aLOT about how I was too lazy to get a job even thou I was going to places every two months & putting in apps for most anything I thought I could do & they knew cuz they took me. I'm very limited in jobs & in life by physical disabilities that I was born with that noone understood & weren't even diagnosed till I became an adult. I made LOTs of post online when I was depressed for a few reasons. I wanted advice I could actually use & apply to me, I wanted to hear from others who could relate & understand so I wouldn't feel as alone, posting helped me blow off steam, & it was also a way for me to analyze & sort things out. I was also seeing a psychiatrist regularly & taking meds, got counseling for a short time, joined a support group for people with depression, anxiety, & bipolar disorder, & I was working on trying to change my life situation by trying & eventually getting employed for for a couple years. My biggest problem thou was that I was unable to get another romantic relationship. Lots of members online got frustrated about me making the same kind of posts a lot & accused me of things like not trying to get better. I really was working on myself as best I could & was slowly making progress with my depression but being single & not really having anyone I could be my true self with offline was slowing progress down. I made LOTS of realtionship posts because I was very lonely & people didn't like me making the same kind of relationship posts either in addition to my depression posts. My relationship & depression posts did overlap a lot thou. I def been accused of things as being an emotional vampire, not trying to get better, driving others away due to my depression, told that I need to improve myself in order to have a relationship even thou I was doing my very best to work on myself, & being accused of all kind of stuff just made me feel worse about myself & my situation. After losing my 3rd job, I quit seeing my psych because I had a suspicion that the meds I was on contributed to making a tremor disorder worse which was the reason I lost my 3rd job & I couldn't really afford to keep taking my meds due to losing my medical insurance(long story) & paying to see my psych was another expense I could barely afford. I weaned myself off all my meds & felt better being off them than I did the entire time I was on them. I think the meds helped hold me together in the beginning but were making me more depressed in the end. I kept making depressed relationship posts that frustrated others since that was the biggest reason I was depressed & I was also trying to find another job but just didn't have any luck. I eventually got in my 2nd realtionship & shortly after that ended my 3rd. I'm aLOT happier now than I ever was before I became depressed. Part of the reason is that I was able to change my life situation by moving in with her & she also has issues & has researched psychology a lot trying to understand hers so she really understands my issues better than anyone else ever has & I understand her's better than anyone else & I think being supportive within a relationship of people with issues is one of my bigger relationship strengths. I got on psych meds again shortly before my 2nd relationship ended but being in that relationship helped me realize that my OCD & anxiety were my biggest problems with screwing my 1st relationship up as well as causing problems in that relationship instead of my depression & getting on meds specifically to treat those things helped me alot. I got on two more psych meds after I been living with my current girlfriend a while but the antipsychotic is so I won't get angry quite as easily & for a possible delusional disorder, & the 1st antidepressant was partly due to problems sleeping as well as depression after losing my chinchilla that I had for 9 years & having a surgery coming up didn't help. I just chose to stay on it after cuz Cass had wondered if I was depressed since before that stuff because I didn't have much interests in things even thou I wasn't feeling depressed & wasn't really complaining about things too much. I changed that antidepressant to a different one a while back because I was sleeping alot & feeling tired alot. I wanted something that might help give me more energy during the day instead of helping me sleep at night, might help my ADD(nonhyper ADHD) alittle, & help with my binge eating in addition to my depression. People who say that you cant expect a realtionship to make you less depressed & that you need to fix yourself 1st are wrong at least about me & my experience. There's plenty of people like me who are trying to work on themselves & having a relationship could help them even more. Members who've been here since before I got in my 2nd realtionship like FaceOfBoo can attest to how bad my posts were when I was single.

@ nick007:

The difference between yourself and other posters is that you made an effort to treat your depression, to work on improving yourself, to try meds, to try seeing a psychologist etc.

The posters we're talking about never talk about changing themselves, trying to treat their depression, ruling out treatment methods and trying others etc - even when they're asked about those things.

Instead it's persistent blaming everyone else for their problems, or posting multiple times per day that they want to die. Those are not attractive qualities in someone to date. No one I know has dated someone severely depressed and said "Wow, what an amazing ball of depressive negativity! I thoroughly enjoyed feeling so down while we were together! I can't wait to spend a the rest of my life feeling so low with them!" In fact, it's been the opposite, I know people who have had to gently break it to their dates that they didn't see a future with someone chronically clinically depressed. They're not rude or wrong for choosing happiness over someone who's always a dark cloud, IMO.

Even if you hadn't, and have not ?, completely overcome your depression before you got into a relationship, at least you were trying. Even the act of caring enough about yourself and potential partner to Try to get better is significantly more attractive. People are people, human, and experience ups and downs of emotions. That's acceptable. But to be suicidally depressed and seeking a date or partner is just setting yourself up for rejection & failure when you'd have a much greater chance of successfully forming a relationship after getting your mental health in better order first.

I definitely agree that limiting ones negativity when interacting with family and friends or any people in real life is necessary for ones own well being and that of others. I'm less sure about ones own threads on forums. Other people choose to read it. In real life it's not that easy to walk away without coming across as impolite. I think whether it's harmful for themselves depends on how much of their overall focus it is. When I first was depressed and sisn't mention it in real life as long as it was possible to keep it secret it definitely helped me and didn't harm me that there were forums where I could talk about it without needing to talk to a person who knew me well enough to be more emotionally affected themselves. I never did it to the extent or for as a long time as some people on this forum do, therefore I can't say from personal experience if there's a point where it would have been harmful for myself rather than helpful. But at that point it helped me sort out my thoughts and realize in more detail what caused my depression. If someone needs to go on for years about exactly the same topic, it means they're probably not doing well at dealing with their depression. I'm not sure if venting on a forum is what's stopping them from dealing with the problem more directly though. I guess, if they'd do that if there were no forums that'd be better for them but if they'd only be even more isolated it'd probably be worse.

It's probably hypocritical of me to talk about this, because I often don't have the patience to be very careful how I word things myself and often prefer talking about opinions or facts to trying to help but I think it can make a difference for some people how something is presented to them for whether they'll accept it.
For example what you often point out about how one can regulate their own thoughts and how that affects ones own well being is basically true. When my depression was at its worst and I couldn't keep it secret and saw a therapist for it she told me that too and I had no trouble accepting it. However, she presented that point in a less extreme way, in a way that couldn't be interpreted as ones own happiness only depending on choosing to be happy and being completely isolated from ones reality. Because people also are social creatures and as such most of us are to a grater or lesser extent hardwired to suffer from social isolation and loneliness activates some of the same brain areas as physical pain. For physical pain it is also true that you can influence its severity by your thoughts or attitude towards it but only to a limited extent. It may be somewhat easier for loneliness but is still limited. I don't know if I agree or disagree with you about the effect of choosing ones own thoughts on ones own happiness because I don't know to what extent I might or might not misread the rhetoric or emphasis put on this topic.
I don't think that happiness is a choice but that trying to achieve happiness is.

VERY good stuff. This is exactly what I think people need to hear.

What we find frustrating is the kind of “boo hoo hooooo...nobody wuvs me, I just wanna diiiiiiieeeeeee, waaaaaahhhh” posts AFTER we’ve tried to address the problem from every angle we can think of and even get outside the box creative just to offer SOMETHING. It crosses a line from honestly being in the same kind of bad place you were in to being more about attention-getting.

It’s not that someone is simply being an emotional vampire. It’s that the emotional vampire (I really don’t like that term, btw) is making the effort to hang on to their position as a vamp. Instead of taking advice and getting better as you did, they RUN the exact opposite direction. Their self-loathing is so ingrained into their persona that to do otherwise would practically kill them.

I think you have to reach rock bottom so hard that you say “ENOUGH!! ! I WON’T DO THIS ANYMORE! I’m DONE! NEVER AGAIN!” screaming in all caps before you are ready to turn it all around. I don’t know if you had that experience, but it’s something like that.

What I’m saying is people WANT to be where they are. It’s easier to complain, to try to drag happy people down rather than to elevate oneself from misery. You can attest to the difficulty of it, to the need for therapeutic venting. I don’t have a problem with someone just needing to lay their issues on others because, sure, carrying the load is more easily done when it’s shared.

I’ve even done that before despite it being out of character for me. But it takes the form of “hey, y’all, I know what I need to do. But I’m super frustrated and hurt right now and just need to get this off my chest. Thanks for listening...” Everyone does that. Most of the time, we do that precisely because we do NOT want to be in that place and we’re actively working to get out of it. We just want everyone to know “I’m ok. Life just sucks right now.” People relate to that and getting attention is encouraging in those times.

I don’t kick people when they’re down. Or if that’s how it comes across, that’s not my intention. I’ll say something like “I feel you bro. You’re gonna make it. Hang in there.” And if someone seems to be reaching out, I’ll say, “I gotcha. It looks to me like you’re dealing with a, b, c. I think if you’ll work on x, y, z, I bet you can pull through and reach your goal.”

But the feedback sometimes is “hey, eff you, man. I’m not doing any of that. I tried it two times and it never worked, so booooo hooooo hooooo. My life is WORSE now. Eff you, effity eff eff eff.” Your life seems worse because the effort you make is HARD. There is the resistance right at first, and all the tweaks you have to make along the way.

There’s the pain of rejection, the pain of breakups, the pain of LTR with an abuser, and all of that. Getting to that place SUCKS, but you do what you have to do. It really is easier to be alone and frustrated than IAR. But for those like us who’ve made it, it’s SO WORTH IT.

I think some people in that place of self-loathing, though they don’t fully realize it, really are better off single.

Now I’m rambling...ugh... I should also point out that single != alone. You still have family, friends, the internet. So I think it’s better to carefully word it to avoid saying you’re better off alone, because true loneliness is the worst place to be. And you never really are, which is my point. I think IAR or the pursuit of it can be more destructive than accepting single status, at least for the time being.

I’m glad you figured out how to get through it. Your experience can be very valuable to others who are now in a similar state.

Of course there's a therapeutic reason to vent & voice depressive thoughts. To a certain extent it's normal and healthy. What isn't is avoiding any possibility of healing, improving your thinking, and in turn feeling better. For one's own health they should try to limit their negativity, both in terms of their own thoughts as well as what they put out there into the world. There's no logical sense in reinforcing depressed thoughts by saying or writing them over and over - it gives them power, it literally rewires the brain to continue down the same depressive pathways. There are reasons that myself and others suggest to the severely depressed that they consider treatment options, reading books, learning, trying to change - and those reasons aren't just for us not wanting to read their depressive posts, but rather because we would genuinely prefer to read that they are improving, healing, thinking & feeling better.

I agree that happiness, or unhappiness, may not be a conscious choice.. but the pursuit if it is. Honest to God I was depressed for most of my life - as far back as some of my earliest childhood memories. I was at my worst about 6 years ago, but thankfully it truly was darkest before the dawn. Over several years I decided to limit negative mind pollution (no horror films etc) and to fill my head with the knowledge between the pages of books on positive thinking and being happy. I read several and learned a lot. I also took a couple different meds for a few years before that. (which had their pros and cons, mostly pros at the time or I wouldn't have taken them.) Then I remembered a book my GP had prescribed, "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns. I read it, put myself through the written exercises that were supposed to improve my thinking.. scored the results daily only to frustratingly realize that my thoughts were getting worse, not better. Then I learned about a food acid sensitivity I had and how to detox it from my body using epsom salts on my skin so that the excess acids could be excreted from my body via urination. Within 5 days the worst depression & anxiety of my life that had worsened for 5 straight months was all but completely lifted and life goes on. It truly was biochemical for me, and medicine of sorts was the answer. I've been a generally positive and upbeat person ever since. But all of it was only made possible by a will to try to achieve happiness in the first place.

Doubt nick talked about it either so you’d accused him of not doing anything either.
Just like you accuse me despite how I’ve said I am. You just like being mean to people is all so you assume we don’t do anything cause by your logic, if we were we’d fixed it already or not being posting about our problems and loneliness. Yiu just want us to shut up and go away so yiu don’t have to deal with reality. But you don’t have to be here, you say your life is fantastic. Why don’t you go live your fantastic life and live us with crappy lives alone.

Honestly, if I got a gf tomorrow and it worked out I wouldn’t be in here. Many users who got gfs or bfs are gone. Their life got better and thus they didn’t need a support site anymore. I’m baffled by people who have great lives who come to a support sit to bash those who don’t.

Your rite. I didn't talk about what I was doing to treat my depression & issues a whole lot cuz I was more focused on the negatives when I was posting, especially when I was posting about wanting a realtionship. I did bring up what I was doing when I got accused of not trying or when I thought it was really relevant to a post.

If you are in fact making an effort to treat your depression, and are making progress, then good for you. It would be SO MUCH BETTER to read you make threads and posts about that instead of dwelling on the darkest most negative thoughts that pass through your mind. I have noticed that in the last few weeks you've significantly reduced the frequency at which you post that you want to die, so, that's something & a start at least. People would MUCH RATHER support your efforts at improvement than hear about only the negative things in your life.

That was rude. I'm not mean. It's incredibly rare that I'm mean to anyone, ever, in any aspect of my life, and when I am they most certainly deserve it. I can't even think of the last time I was ever mean to someone tbh. I'm a very giving, generous, charitable, and helpful person. To call me mean is the result of some very distorted thinking.

So focus your posts and thread topics on your healing efforts and progress, not on things you dislike about yourself and your life. It would make a big difference in your healing process.

I've never ever told you to shut up or go away. I have suggested that you stop complaining so much and focus on anything positive instead. There's a big difference between what I said and what you interpret it as.

You are right, sly, for a 35yo autistic man renting from his parents my life IS pretty fantastic! I was at beaches around 120 times last year both hanging out and kiteboarding, and dozens of times already this year. I'm pretty fit, my sex life is as good as I want it to be, I have many friends & family members to spend time with when I want to, I can get jobs and work whenever, I'm not depressed or anxious much at all ever anymore, I've accumulated some financial wealth, I drive a brand new car, and I'm going to pursue the most ambitious undertaking of my life when I return to University studies at least part time this year, and then full time as finances allow.. my ASD symptoms are well under control compared to how they once were.. etc etc etc. I don't share these things to boast or rub it in, I share them to show others that it's 100% entirely possible to change your entire life for the better. That one can go from $110K in debt, bankrupt, almost homeless & living in a construction site, very unhealthy, out of shape, with strong ASD symptoms, executive functioning issues to the nth degree, horrific depression & crippling anxiety... to who I am today. I share to inspire, not to belittle. I offer advice & suggestions to help, not to be mean. I hang around here because I've grown to like many of the personalities I interact with here.. plus it's addictive.. and I've had a LOT of free time this Winter - once I decide to work full time+ hours again I won't be online here anywhere near as much as I have been. If everyone who bettered themselves left a support forum like this, who would be around to do any supporting? What quality of interactions or advice would transpire if only the most depressed people were online? This forum is a bit like doing the Tough Mudder.. we don't quit & we don't leave anyone behind. If I get to the top first, I don't carry on running. I stop, look back, reach my long strong arm down & pull the next person up. In fact, I literally pull a dozen+ people up until I physically can't anymore and then I move forward, with them. People like me don't give up on people like you anywhere near as easily as you do. It's not in me, or anyone like me, to let you fail.

The probability of you getting a gf tomorrow and it working out is slim to none. That's reality. That's why myself and others consistently remind you that you'd be better off working on improving yourself in every way so that you're a much more datable sly before you try to jump into the dating world. You would have a MUCH greater chance of success after you've overcome your depression & anxiety, and perhaps gotten yourself into better physical shape, and worked towards a more prosperous financial life, too. Even without physical fitness & money, you'd be a MUCH better candidate for a date than someone who is highly anxious and suicidally depressed. If I were mean I wouldn't care whether you got better or not, and I certainly wouldn't have offered to pay for some of the resources I think could help you learn and grow.

Again, I haven't ever come here to bash anyone. I come to learn things I need to learn, to discuss things of interest with personalities I've gotten to know and like, and to offer my advice to others who have yet to achieve the things I have on my journey because I've done them and am in a better position to offer helpful advice on how to achieve them than other people who have not.

Offer's still open, sly. I would still pay for that book/audiobook, and if you were open to trying other things that have worked for me I'd be open to discussing paying for them, too. If you have a will to learn, grow, heal, overcome your depression & anxiety, get in better physical shape etc then I would gladly volunteer my time to advise you how to best do it (based on the best of my knowledge & experiences) at the lowest possible dollar cost and even pay for things you Need along the way. I'm someone who went from $110K in debt and unable to work to making $150/month and spending 100% of it on bettering my health until I was able to work more and earn more, and then on to working more than full time, saving and investing, and catching up to & even surpassing many of my peers, so I know a thing or two about how to do this. But I also know it takes having a will to do it. If you do, I'll help you do it, and it won't be that many months-to-a-few-short years until you, too, are living a relatively fantastic life.

So you may still want to die.
Just don't post about it.
Because that upsets people.
And makes them uncomfortable.
Only post positive stuff.
Because that's not fake at all.
And everyone else will feel better.
So, win-win, right?

Which I’ve done but It’s ignored, or said it’s not enough. They don’t care I’m doing all I can, they accuse me of lying about my difficulties and experiences.

How can we talk them out of suicide if they're forbidden from talking about it?

Suicidal thoughts are a serious concern that should be discussed without taboo.

If we tell suicidal people they can't talk about it, it will make them feel more alone and then they'll be more likely to do it.

I would prefer to talk about someone's suicidal thoughts then have them act on them. I would prefer to risk feeling uncomfortable rather than risk their life.

Depressed people are already isolated enough so let's not take away their chance to call for help.

Exactly.

I think he was being sarcastic?

For many of us here wp is all we have left. Yet the minority here tell us to keep quite. Don’t say anything unless it’s positive. To create a fake political correct world here just like we have in the rest of the world. Basically thst we aren’t wanted anywhere.

I never said that.

It's not All Or Nothing.

I suggested that people try to focus on the positive instead of only dwelling on the negative.

Big difference.