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RE: Aspie men and the chase

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Booyakasha
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31 Jul 2018, 6:39 am

rdos wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
if neanderthals actually were autistic, they'd be able to invent something and survive....yet they didn't.


Invention is a two-step process. First, you invent something and then you spread your invention to a large population. Inventions that are not spread don't make much of a difference, and if you lack inventive people, you won't have anything to spread. Which kind of summarizes why neither Neanderthal nor modern humans invented anything new. Neanderthals lacked social networks and modern humans lacked inventive people.


modern humans didn't invent anything new? then by your definition i'm sitting in a cave now and typing on the cave floor :P

The world has changed so much during the last few centuries, mostly due to inventions of many kinds...and yes, most scientists/mathematicians/engineers do have an autistic streak more than the general populace of the other cavemen.



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 6:40 am

Booyakasha wrote:
but i found rdos' site lol.

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm


That's the basic research hypothesis, but the current scientific articles (three of them published) are here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leif_Ekblad



Booyakasha
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31 Jul 2018, 6:41 am

rdos wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
but i found rdos' site lol.

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm


That's the basic research hypothesis, but the current scientific articles (three of them published) are here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leif_Ekblad


found that too :P

thanks nonetheless



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 6:45 am

Booyakasha wrote:
rdos wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
if neanderthals actually were autistic, they'd be able to invent something and survive....yet they didn't.


Invention is a two-step process. First, you invent something and then you spread your invention to a large population. Inventions that are not spread don't make much of a difference, and if you lack inventive people, you won't have anything to spread. Which kind of summarizes why neither Neanderthal nor modern humans invented anything new. Neanderthals lacked social networks and modern humans lacked inventive people.


modern humans didn't invent anything new? then by your definition i'm sitting in a cave now and typing on the cave floor :P

The world has changed so much during the last few centuries, mostly due to inventions of many kinds...and yes, most scientists/mathematicians/engineers do have an autistic streak more than the general populace of the other cavemen.


These inventions happened in a hybrid population. As did everything that advanced technology. The advances in technology happened in the Upper Paleolithic in Europe, in the presence of Neanderthals and with probable introgressed Neanderthal traits.

Naturally, if we should talk about inventions of modern humans and Neanderthals, we need to limit ourselves to non-admixed populations, and in that context, no technology advance happened in any of them.



Peacesells
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31 Jul 2018, 7:06 am

This has just become the usual stupid "NT are idiots" thread.

Image



Booyakasha
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31 Jul 2018, 7:09 am

rdos wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
rdos wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
if neanderthals actually were autistic, they'd be able to invent something and survive....yet they didn't.


Invention is a two-step process. First, you invent something and then you spread your invention to a large population. Inventions that are not spread don't make much of a difference, and if you lack inventive people, you won't have anything to spread. Which kind of summarizes why neither Neanderthal nor modern humans invented anything new. Neanderthals lacked social networks and modern humans lacked inventive people.


modern humans didn't invent anything new? then by your definition i'm sitting in a cave now and typing on the cave floor :P

The world has changed so much during the last few centuries, mostly due to inventions of many kinds...and yes, most scientists/mathematicians/engineers do have an autistic streak more than the general populace of the other cavemen.


These inventions happened in a hybrid population. As did everything that advanced technology. The advances in technology happened in the Upper Paleolithic in Europe, in the presence of Neanderthals and with probable introgressed Neanderthal traits.

Naturally, if we should talk about inventions of modern humans and Neanderthals, we need to limit ourselves to non-admixed populations, and in that context, no technology advance happened in any of them.


Are you saying neanderthals are walking beside us? Since I haven't spotted one during the last 35-45 000 years, at least, and it's enough to take the time capsule and go back 200 years and to see the difference between now and then.

I think you're grossly overrating the impact their genome has had on us. but yeah, that little that they left did have an impact on us - they left us with the diabetes 2, Chron's disease, long-term depression, lupus, biliary cirrhosis, propensity towards smoking, high cholesterol, so you can say that all these people here have a Neanderthal being depressed in them, or that your granny's neanderthal has diabetes 2. that has nothing to do with autism though.



Booyakasha
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31 Jul 2018, 7:10 am

Peacesells wrote:
This has just become the usual stupid "NT are idiots" thread.

Image


nope - it's the stupid "neanderthals aren't autistics" thread.



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 7:14 am

Peacesells wrote:
This has just become the usual stupid "NT are idiots" thread.


How come? Is it very offensive to point out the weaknesses of NTs? Is it offensive that the out-of-Africa migrants couldn't improve on their toolkits without at least the help of Neanderthals, but probably only by introgressing their DNA? Then so be it, because this seems to be the facts.



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 7:19 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Are you saying neanderthals are walking beside us? Since I haven't spotted one during the last 35-45 000 years, at least, and it's enough to take the time capsule and go back 200 years and to see the difference between now and then.


The physical phenotype of Neanderthals no longer exists, but then looks and behavior are not related. What we are talking about is the behavior and brain functions of Neanderthals, and these are very much still with us. Even if the bearers don't look like Neanderthals.

Booyakasha wrote:
I think you're grossly overrating the impact their genome has had on us. but yeah, that little that they left did have an impact on us - they left us with the diabetes 2, Chron's disease, long-term depression, lupus, biliary cirrhosis, propensity towards smoking, high cholesterol, so you can say that all these people here have a Neanderthal being depressed in them, or that your granny's neanderthal has diabetes 2. that has nothing to do with autism though.


I think I'm not. I think science is still working on useless contributions and are not seeing the important ones.



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31 Jul 2018, 7:36 am

rdos wrote:
Peacesells wrote:
This has just become the usual stupid "NT are idiots" thread.


How come? Is it very offensive to point out the weaknesses of NTs? Is it offensive that the out-of-Africa migrants couldn't improve on their toolkits without at least the help of Neanderthals, but probably only by introgressing their DNA? Then so be it, because this seems to be the facts.

Facts my ass. Now you talk like "NTs couldn't improve their toolkits without help form NDs", which is extremely stupid. :lol:

But hey keep on with your xenophobic and stupid rant about how NTs are stupid and not inventive if you feel like.



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31 Jul 2018, 7:41 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I just can’t envision a bunch of autisticNeanderthals trying to catch a woolly mammoth.....

Or sitting around the fire after a hunt.

Survival in the Ice Age required cooperation. And being social.

If there were many Aspie Neanderthals, I’m sure there what have been more innovation, say, in the Neanderthal tool kit. The Neanderthal tool kit remained pretty static for tens of thousands of years.


Or..


autisticNeanderthals: "Awww...look how cute this woolly mammoth is, so fluffy. Let's just let it go".

/die from hunger.
/extinction.



Peacesells
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31 Jul 2018, 7:53 am

*Neanderthal screeching*



Booyakasha
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31 Jul 2018, 8:08 am

rdos wrote:
Peacesells wrote:
This has just become the usual stupid "NT are idiots" thread.


How come? Is it very offensive to point out the weaknesses of NTs? Is it offensive that the out-of-Africa migrants couldn't improve on their toolkits without at least the help of Neanderthals, but probably only by introgressing their DNA? Then so be it, because this seems to be the facts.


DISCLAIMER: I had no intention whatsoever to endorse any kind of autistic supremacy or what not.

I don't think modern humans needed any help from Neanderthals, in fact we'd be better off without them giving us too many diseases.

My point was that inventions do follow those with the autistic streak, but without any neanderthal help, and not necessarily in autistic individuals.



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 8:14 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I just can’t envision a bunch of autisticNeanderthals trying to catch a woolly mammoth.....

Or sitting around the fire after a hunt.

Survival in the Ice Age required cooperation. And being social.

If there were many Aspie Neanderthals, I’m sure there what have been more innovation, say, in the Neanderthal tool kit. The Neanderthal tool kit remained pretty static for tens of thousands of years.


Or..


autisticNeanderthals: "Awww...look how cute this woolly mammoth is, so fluffy. Let's just let it go".

/die from hunger.
/extinction.


That's right. But then, most, if not all, large ice-age animals appeared to be docile. I don't find it very far-fetched that Neanderthals actually used the natural surplus available that would otherwise have died during winter. They lived in harmony with nature. So, no, I don't find this inconsistent at all. They probably planned their reproduction too so their numbers would not be higher than what was sustainable. That's the whole asexuality-related "thing" related to neurodiversity.



kraftiekortie
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31 Jul 2018, 8:23 am

Neanderthals survived quite well for tens of thousands of years without much innovation.

Modern humans, while not especially innovative during the Paleolithic period, nevertheless were more innovative than the Neanderthals.

I happen to be one of those who wishes Neanderthals were in the same subspecies as us. And I believe they were as “human” as us.

But, let’s face it, innovation wasn’t one of their strong points.



rdos
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31 Jul 2018, 8:24 am

Booyakasha wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I had no intention whatsoever to endorse any kind of autistic supremacy or what not.


Me neither. Neurodiverse and neurotypical people have different strengths, and this is what caused the UP technology boom, as well as the modern variant. None of them can be thought of as superior. That's why I claimed none of these populations made much inventions in their toolkits.

Booyakasha wrote:
I don't think modern humans needed any help from Neanderthals, in fact we'd be better off without them giving us too many diseases.


I think it would have been far better if these two species had been kept separated. It would have meant we still lived at the stone-age (regardless if we were modern or Neanderthal), but that would also have meant life on Earth would not be threatened with extinction.

Booyakasha wrote:
My point was that inventions do follow those with the autistic streak, but without any neanderthal help, and not necessarily in autistic individuals.


That's a bit inconsistent. If autistic traits are from Neanderthal, that means they are the same, and so Neanderthals did help modern humans invent. I know this is so offensive to many people, but I really don't care because I think it is the truth, and the only thing that makes sense based on what we know.