Alcohole, peer pessure and big mistakes in love

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i_Am_andaJoy
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11 Dec 2007, 4:28 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

^^ Feeling ashamed sometimes it's not a such bad thing as you are trying to project , in fact this feeling makes you improve. When I do something wrong at work I feel ashamed of it and I promise myself to never do the same mistake again and so I improve the quality of my work. And oh...there's a world of difference between 'feeling ashamed about something you did' and ' feeling shame about yourself.
It's ok if you don't agree with me but that doesn't give you the right to call me stupid or whatever.

Hope I am on the top of the list alex!!

i didn't call you stupid, i just said i think you are WRONG. there is a difference.

and maybe you are a very different creature than i am, but i can not imagine how shame would make me improve. i just see no reason at all to entertain shame, or any other negative emotion, it has little to do with changing behavior, and NOTHING to do with changing behavior for the right reasons. if a person makes a mistake, i am all for RECOGNIZING the mistake and moving on, but there is no need to suffer and wallow in shame or guilt or feelings of stupidity.

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LePetitPrince
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11 Dec 2007, 4:36 pm

^^ I never said to not moving on, well I am not sure what creature I am but I am sure about that when a human does something wrong and he recognizes that he did something wrong would feel ashamed about what he did and tries to never do it again(and here the improving part) and then he moves on with his life.

sarahstilettos
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11 Dec 2007, 4:50 pm

I completely disagree with LPP's sentiments, as I find there have been many mistakes in my life I have been completely unable to move on from until I stopped feeling ashamed of them.

Just to be annoyingly pendantic, here is the dictionary definition of "shame" - 1. a feeling of embarrassment or distress arising from one's awareness that one has done something wrong or foolish. 2. loss of respect, dishonour. (the other meanings aren't really relevent to this context).

Shame, in other words, is distressing and detrimental to your self respect. Emotions that personally make me want to hit the bottle even harder. I don't think you need it in order to be able to tell yourself you're not going to do that thing again.

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11 Dec 2007, 4:54 pm

^^ I was pointing to definition 1. and not definition 2 , there's big difference between them ...I am not telling the lady to feel dishonor about herself I am just telling her it's ok to be embarrassed about this ....and it's good that she regrets abt it. You are replying me on the basis of the second definition and not the first .

Last edited by LePetitPrince on 11 Dec 2007, 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sarahstilettos
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11 Dec 2007, 5:00 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

^^ I was pointing to definition 1. and not definition 2. , there's big difference between them.

Yes, there is. I still think its an unproductive emotion though. It seems to me that people who are good at learning from their mistakes disassociate themselves from them, rather than beating themselves up about them and feeling distressed. I should know, because I beat myself up about all my mistakes, and I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't lead to a healthy psyche.

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11 Dec 2007, 5:02 pm

I edited my previous post.

LePetitPrince
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11 Dec 2007, 5:05 pm

sarahstilettos wrote:

LePetitPrince wrote:

^^ I was pointing to definition 1. and not definition 2. , there's big difference between them.

It won't be productive if you just beat yourself , you need to promise yourself to not repeat the mistake again and move on after that , this is how you learn from your mistakes ....to learn to improve yourself from your mistakes.

gwenevyn
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11 Dec 2007, 5:07 pm

It's okay LPP, I think you'd explained your intent. I'm satisfied at any rate.

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sarahstilettos
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11 Dec 2007, 5:19 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

sarahstilettos wrote:

LePetitPrince wrote:

^^ I was pointing to definition 1. and not definition 2. , there's big difference between them.

Firstly, if you substitute "intensely embarrassed" for "distressed" in my last post it can apply to the first definition, and I'm still happy with what I've written.

Obviously I don't get angry with myself about things and then make no attempt to improve myself, I do, but I find my attempts to move on are hampered by a very self critical attitude.

I honestly believe that empathising with someone who's made a mistake is a million times more productive than criticising them, unless the person in question already has an ego the size of a small country. For one thing, they are far more likely to take your comments on board.

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11 Dec 2007, 5:24 pm

Quote:

I honestly believe that empathizing with someone who's made a mistake is a million times more productive than criticising them, unless the person in question already has an ego the size of a small country. For one thing, they are far more likely to take your comments on board.

Empathizing is only good to make someone feels better ,and this can be necessary in some cases, but it doesn't make him to be better. You can't teach your child how to deal with his mistakes by just empathizing with him.

sarahstilettos
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11 Dec 2007, 5:31 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

Quote:

You can't do this to a child, just like you can't have a rational arguement with a child. They aren't ready for it yet. If you're talking about an adult, empathising and only then offering gentle criticism or suggestion for improvement will certainly help that person better themselves.

alex
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11 Dec 2007, 5:33 pm

shame doesn't prevent you from doing something. Sure, it can deter you, but only if you really didn't want to do the thing in the first place. In fact, shame, like most emotions, leads to irrationality. Sometimes it makes you more likely to do the bad thing again because you feel that if you've already shamed yourself, there's no point in trying not to anymore.

Relying on emotions to teach yourself lessons is irrational and unfortunate. Period.

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sarahstilettos
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11 Dec 2007, 5:37 pm

OK, that was a bit more succinct than all my posts. Thankyou Alex!

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11 Dec 2007, 5:41 pm

alex wrote:

In fact, in the case of a compulsive behavior, shame may actually fuel the compulsion.

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11 Dec 2007, 5:45 pm

Emotions are there for a reason , there's no useless emotion in human being ...they all serve evolutionary purposes and in case you are creationist then you should believe that God created these emotions in us for a reason (bah!). Feeling guilt , ashamed about something you did,regret .....doesn't usually lead you to repeat the bad thing again I totally disagree with Alex about this point.
An extreme example: a criminal would only become a better person once he really feels regret about his crimes ...and once he feels regrets then there's big possibility to stop his crimes. Saddam was a monstrous criminal because he never felt regret nor shame about all what he did and so he continued to do the same crimes till the end of his life ...and that's why saddam couldn't survive this world =) .

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11 Dec 2007, 6:00 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

I think there's some truth to what you say, however, shame and regret are not the same thing. People who feel ashamed about their behavior often continue in the behavior. People who feel regret often seek to make amends. I think it's the difference between authentic and inauthentic feelings of guilt. The former is genuine and the individual seeks to change; the latter is just an ego-game, an attention getting device. "Oh I feel so guilty; oh I'm such a bad person."

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