Don't trust ANYTHING women say.

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I can't believe I missed this!

Not meaning to judge. Can I rack your brain from a while? It is interesting your account, saying that you hoped that something would grow out of it. I'm not trying to be nosy, but it might be helpful to me to know about this. Feel free to ignore if it is too personal.

I was wondering what you meant by that, because I've come to the conclusion recently that one of the reasons why I've not had a relationship yet is because while I might like a person and find them attractive I still need to become accustomed to them to be sure if I'm right. My judgment has been off, but I'm learning. See, I don't look across the road and think 'I want to shack up with her', to put it bluntly. I couldn't tell you which celebrities/public figures I fancy. I just don't have that sort of mindset, I really need to get to know the person a lot more. Not knowing how to approach this has made me feel uncomfortable about it. I'm not nearly as bad as I was but I think it is something to do with letting people close. I also don't want to hurt the potential g/f. In a way maybe sex is an experiment worth having once you get to that level then possibly after that you can focus on other things like how viable you are as a couple long term. I don't see anything wrong with relationships based on sex and varying degrees of intimacy and support. I'm certain I can feel deeply for someone, I just don't like to idealise this 'soul mate'. To me it needs be a type of relationship for it to work, not to know that the love me the same everyday.

I think the moral of the story is 'the game' is lacking some communication. It would be better if people said what is on their mind. It is easier said than done though.

There's a whole range of permissible options in between. It's a negotiating process, finding what works for people. NTs make heavy use of indirect communications in the process. Part of the reason is that it lets people choose which cues they're going to respond to.

Not acting on a cue is often indistinguishable from rejecting it. Just because the cue wasn't recognized as such doesn't change how things look from the outside.

But you can't really turn back the clock, either - I lost faith in relationships, not that I think that I'm so bad that I couldn't make anyone happy or that no one could ever want me, but I don't think it could work out; therefore it wouldn't be worth the effort, the conflicts, the inevitable drama, the loss of personal space.

In other words, women should change how they act just to please you.

If you can't communicate clearly with someone, you shouldn't be in a relationship with them. It's that simple, and no amount of philosophising about the impications of body language or how Aspie men are misunderstood will change that fact.

Different people have different boundaries, and you need to navigate them. That's what 'testing the waters' means, and that's what courtship is all about. From the first time you meet someone, to dating, to sex, and beyond, you’re still getting to know them. And people's feelings change, so you have to accept the fact that someone might be attracted to you initially, but will feel differently once they get to know you better. It's not because you sent the wrong signals, it's because you weren't right for each other.

We’re not talking about climbing into bed with strangers. If you do that, then obviously you’re putting yourself on the line, given the fact that you don’t know the person. I don’t know how I can explain it any better than I already have.

zee, if you had a boyfriend, would be ok for him to share a bed with one of his girlfriends and maybe hold hands as long as he tells you its platonic and not sexual?

I don't see how you get from "understand that guys have boundaries, too" to "women should change how they act just to please you", though that appears to be the leap you've made.

As for the rest of it, it's true enough as far as it goes. It seems to preclude learning, though.

We are sapient. We can learn. It may be slow and excruciatingly painful, but bits and pieces can be studied and understood.

We must learn, because there simply aren't enough Aspie females. Most Aspie males must date/marry/whatever NTs, or not at all.

Yes, both men and women have boundaries, and both should be respected. Zee seems to forget also how indirect most women are (which even NT men hate), and how much the burden of initiating things rests on men's shoulders (what percentage of women have asked a man out more than once in their lives, versus what percentage of men?).
Dishman is right, most aspie men will either go for NT women or stay single, because of sheer numbers.

zee, I cant help but feeling quite irritated with your attitude . I too have my boundaries and I expect women to respect those boundaries. Im not the kind of person who will bear a grudge against someone just because they make one mistake; However if I tell someone that she has crossed the line and she does it AGAIN and AGAIN then Im going to back out.
I cant f*****g tell you HOW many times a woman has completely cut me off because of a mistake that I made. I am a DIRECT person and to be perfectly honest with you zee, I Strongly Prefer to be friends/lovers etc. with other direct people. Personally I dont think that I could ever truly have a successful relationship with a woman who isnt direct and straightfoward.
Communication is very important in any relationship, and I just cant deal with people who arent inclined to communicate in a way that I can percieve and understand. Its as simple as that . For some reason I tend to attract bipolar women, who are often very direct and uninhibited which works just fine for me.

Jesus Christ! Where do you people get this stuff?

Yes, there seems to be a double standard here, that it's somehow wrong for men to have boundaries (demand "that women change how they act just to please you") but not for women (even though it's demanding that men change how they act just to please women). A guy feels bad because a woman first did something that the vast majority of people would see as a very blatant sexual invitation and later said she just wanted to be friends... and it's somehow the guy's fault for not reading minds. Somehow it sounds like we're expected to not just mind-read, but also be happy about whatever it is that the girl wants (which reminds me a lot of my ex). It's bad enough for NT males, but to deal with that on top of AS communication difficulties is just too much to ask.
Communication is a two-way street. I believe in 'al que no habla, Dios no lo oye' (God does not hear him who doesn't speak).

pbcoll: I couldnt agree more . But seriously, WTF is wrong with people like zee?! I wont put up with double standards that
arent in favor of women-and I dont expect women to put up with double standards that favor men. So zee: LISTEN UP:
If a woman wont listen to me and expects me to just put up with whatever SHE wants and not what I want, than I am DONE WITH HER!
I dont f*****g owe (owe)Women ANYTHING!! I REFUSE to tolerate someone else having control over me and/or the relatioship and I intend to hold women to the SAME STANDARD that they hold men to! But honestly Im really not so sure about dating aspie women since they seem to think its all about Them and what THEY want. I also wont tolerate selfish narcissists who insist that I put them on a pedestal and stroke their big fat ego's. I am NOT Obligated to be friends with someone if I choose not! I also reserve the right to TERMINATE a friendship or even a relationship if I am unhappy with the way things are going. So Ladies of WP: if you want a guy to read your mind, put you on a pedestal, and pander to your ever need-even at the expense of his own I AM NOT THE MAN FOR YOU. I have something called SELF-RESPECT thank you very much
What really gets to me about zee and other women like her is their sense of entitlement. They think because they're female that men should do all the work for them and pander to their every need. The essence of what Im saying to such women is that I do Not recognize their sense of entitlement.

Last edited by D1nk0 on 02 Feb 2008, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

doh, she told you that she wants you just as friend , so what did you expect?

The solution is easy : Don't try with a woman who see you as a 'friend' in the first place. It won't work.

It would depend on the situation. Maybe they're rehearsing for a play, maybe they're just palling around. The point is, you can't look at isolated actions/parts of a situation, you have to see the whole picture. Otherwise you're not in focus of what's going on. Everything has a context.
I guess it's typical of aspies to focus on the small details, and I admit I often do the same thing, and that's why it gets challenging for us. But you won't have much of a relationship if you can't get past this phase, especailly not with another Aspie.

Yes, of course people can learn. And when they do, they will have success. But until then, you can't expect people to make special allowances for you. Doing that is asking people, in this case, women, to change how they act.

Aspie men SHOULD date NT's, in fact you'd probably have way more success.

Men should initiate things, that's just common sense. Women (Aspie or otherwise) aren't attracted to men who don't even have the guts to make the first move. It's the laws of nature. Think about it, a woman who puts more effort into looking attractive, and who will one day bear children... you want her to chase after you as well? What are you going to, go along for the ride? The only women who make the first move are ones looking for casual sex, or to take advantage of you in some other way. If you want a real relationship, be a man.

Why should Aspie women make allowances for you, just because they are Aspies themselves? Not likely. If you can't bring yourself to date NT women, then don't date Aspies either.

Obviously. No arguement from me on this one.


Then she isn't worth it. Why would you want to be with someone who cuts you off? Just learn from the experience and move on.


So you know what kind of partner you want, why not go out and find her? Chances are, she'll be NT. The only question is, can you be direct with her, or are you just going to get frustrated when the first little thing goes wrong?


There you are, then. What's the problem?