NT woman at her wit's end with her male Aspie friend

Post Reply New Topic

Good for you! Ok, you would have liked more, but at least you got something and it didn't lead to a blowup.

Yes, and while I'm trying not to speculate (no, really! ), I do think he's in a sort of denial about his AS traits having anything but a positive impact on his life.



My own experiences with anxiety sound similar to yours. It will come to the surface and wreak havoc when we are most susceptible.



So true. This snark almost caused me to drop the relationship entirely. It was only after observing how and when it occurred that I understood it was at least partially from nervousness or social anxiety. I must admit that it is probably the biggest problem because I've seen him offend service workers and a few others. To further complicate the issue, it isn't always accidental, he definitely knows that he is being rude.



Yep, he could just be a jerk who also happens to be an Aspie, this is still a possibility as far as I'm concerned. For now I'm proceeding with a (cautious) open mind.

It would be denial. The real problem with AS is that it greatly restricts some of those things that make us human. The whole non-verbal stuff is an important aspect of communication and social bonding. While it does seem to allow for other talents, they don't compensate in the social area. Not that NTs don't have problems in these areas, they certainly do. But they have a larger tool chest to work from. it is virtually impossible to make it through your teens with AS and not have some pretty smelly baggage. Just read this forum. Now, it is perfectly possibly to come to terms with it sooner or later. And some never do. But it just isn't possible to avoid taking some hits because of it.



This is the sort of thing I mean. To go out of your way to offend service workers in particular is all about power. You know you can do it and get away with it. And that could be he is compensating for the times he was powerless in his own life. Again, he could just be a jerk, but that is also a moderately common way to compensate for personal powerlessness. Not that excuses his behavior, he needs to come to terms with the reasons he does those things. Abusing others is not to be condoned.

I hope this stuff has helped you as much as it seems to me it has. This thread has be heartening to follow. And I respect you for your attempts to figure things out.

Thanks! Yes, I do want to understand and I definitely don't want to "save" him or try to become his mother or doormat, for that matter.



Which behaviour, specifically?



He isn't obviously wary but when I've done something that *could* be interpreted as rude, he's jumped to the worst conclusion very quickly.

In general, Aspies seem far more results oriented than we NTs. What does the "other side" get out of these relationships? I mean the positive aspects. (Mostly.)



This is brilliant.

Last edited by RecentlyBookmarked on 02 Feb 2009, 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Good.


When he was rude and aggressive. Edit: Not his meltdown, after you've had the break.


... I'm afraid it's too late at night over here, I don't understand the first sentence.
Me personaly?


Of course, I'm a brilliant person.
Know thy self.

Good, I wanted to be sure.



I forgot two sentences. Will edit.

Ahh... that made much more sense.
That's becouse he don't understand, we learn to do that quickly, it's the most used emergency plan for unknown situations. Again, don't stop talking and let him think. It might help if you draw a parallel to a familiar situation.

I think we need someone to love. And sometimes we don't really care it we're loved back.
We need an object of affection.
On the other hand, some of us needs to be loved. He doesn't seems like one of those though.

(Here I can only speak for myself)
I enjoy seeing my "object" happy, if it is with me that's great, someone els, that's great too, just not as much. That's why the jealousy-trick allways backfires.

If he seems to dislike you ex's it might be that you missread him, that he's acting "normal", the side of him you don't see very often if he likes you. Or that he has no idea on how to act around them, to treat them as friends or rivales.

This past weekend he did something that I think is related to this problem, in a way. He happened to arrive at my place as I was fixing lunch. I offered him some. It was nothing complicated or fancy and I certainly wasn't putting myself out by fixing some for him too. However, he took about fifteen minutes to finally meet me at the table and only after I told him twice that the food was ready! When I told him lunch was ready and waiting he just kept petting my cat. The second time he seemed interested in whether I was annoyed, because I kinda sighed as I left the room. In the past he's found my irritation amusing.

I ate at the table while he hung out with my cat. It was so strange: there I was, a grown woman with an ostensibly grown man in my home who was not following basic protocol and eating food I fixed for us. Since I wasn't sure how to react, or not react, I found myself feeling frustrated with him. I had no interest in making a scene over something so simple and yet, understandably, I was angry at him for doing something that was so obviously rude. He is very aware of proper manners and social protocol so there is no chance that he just didn't understand. So, my choices were to ignore or confront? I chose to ignore. But who wants to spend time with somebody who puts them in that sort of position?

This is part of a pattern, but right now I'm confused as to what it is exactly. He likes to provoke people and he is also concerned (more than most) with others not getting "the upper hand." He's said to me, on at least a few occasions, that he likes to do things to irritate me and of course that is controlling behavior and/or about power as CJBinks mentioned. On the other hand, it may just be his way of flirting. It reminds me of when I was in my early teens and the boys in my school only knew how to interract with the girls by doing something overtly annoying in order to get our attention. He jokes about my "making" him try to do things, and that was how he phrased his experiences with his ex-GF too. Once we were just trying to figure out the final details of when and where to meet and after I suggested a time he replied, "Ok, let's do that. I'll comply with your wishes...this one time."

Aside from the obvious, the other reason this behavior bothers me is because I feel as I'm his mother or some other female authority figure when we have this sort of interaction. I hesitate to use the word immature because it seems that's an especially loaded word when used by NTs regarding AS, but in certain respects he does behave in a relatively immature way.

It's important to me to point out that this incident happened within an hour of his arrival and as I think I've already made clear, he is always his most anxious (which in his case can mean snarky, aloof, passive-aggressive, provocative and so on). I sincerely doubt he would have behaved that way if he'd been at my home for a few hours and had had a chance to relax. However, it's not behavior I want to deal with again.

Insight and or suggestions as to how to handle such behavior, or better yet, just stop it before it occurs in the future?



Thank you. Everyone's thoughtful replies have helped me a great deal. My intention is to try to understand to the best of my ability. Despite what happens between my AF and me, I've gained so much. It may sound strange, but at the very least, knowing this guy *and* participating in this forum has benefitted me greatly (though I hope it isn't "all about me"). My mind thrives on new ways of seeing/ thinking about things and people. Even when AF makes me feel like I'm going crazy, the relationship has sparked my imagination and creativity. Does that make any sense?

At any rate, I'm happy to know that others find this encouraging. I've encountered a lot of nasty NTs (and I'm sure Aspies too) and perhaps the fact that many of them have perplexed me makes me all the more receptive to the experiences of others. We either close-up or find strength in vulnerability.

ETA: if I ever post this much again, I will just start a blog! ("The Modern Adventures of Ms. NT and her Aspie" ) This will be my last time being so longwinded. No, really.

Yeah, that went quite well considering I wasn't expecting the topic to come up at all and I really was almost overwhelmed by my emotions.

That was night number 4 that we spent together over 5 days. So, starting in the middle of last week we spent every evening together talking, about things of course ; ), at my place. He won't initiate a get together, but he does accept my invitations.

We even had one mix-up that would have created a big problem in the past: I said I'd be at a certain restaurant from Y to Z time and suggested he could stop by if he wanted. He didn't. When I got home there was a short email, nothing about the restaurant but about something we'd been discussing earlier. I replied and then he immediately IMed that I had in fact not been at the restaurant. I explained that I had been, and we learned he hadn't checked past the main floor . He didn't say, "Oh, my mistake," but based on other similar mix-ups this went smoothly. In fact, I'd say it was normal.

Party:
I'm having a party in a few weeks. Obviously, I'm not going to hide the fact I was having a get together from him, however, this party will have a mix of people and I'm not sure they could deal with him and vice-versa. (Not to mention that I'd be anticipating the worst all night and nobody needs that much stress on top of hosting a party.)

I brought it up a few nights ago. Said I was having a party and he was invited. He said he'd wait and see if he wanted to come. It was a moment that while it unfolded I remembered everything that male Aspies here on WP had written about social situations. Even if AF is a jerk (and I feel like a hung jury because for every great thing he does, he balances it out with something equally asinine) this was poignant: he said that he thought I was not really inviting him but trying to be nice. I tried desperately to tell him that no, he was invited for real (and I kind of cringed inside as I pictured various interactions between him and my other friends) but he stuck with a maybe, which I'm sure has something to do with not wanting to answer to hastily and I was relieved too.

The reason the idea of him at a party makes me cringe is because he isn't simply a benign, socially inept person, he'd risk my feelings and reputation if he felt under attack. It's sad, but at least I realize it. I wonder if he does at all?



If anything, I suspect it may be the opposite in our case. I think he, like anybody, needs attention and he's certainly getting it from me, but at this point I've no idea what exactly either of us is getting out of it. I reassure myself that he simply doesn't suffer fools and would gladly be alone rather than spend time with a woman he doesn't respect or even like, but on the other hand, why can't he be just as human as the rest of us and spend the time with me because it is a good ego massage? (Don't misunderstand, I don't fall all over myself complimenting him, in fact, I'm not sure I compliment him much at all.)

The problem with the term "immaturity" is that it often creates a mindset. But, let's face it, AS are going to be socially immature. Can't really help it.

How to deal with it? Good question. If he likes being around you, he is just going to have to accept there are some limits. Maybe do something like get a little flag, and when his snarkiness gets over the line, you wave it.
You have a point with respect to adolescent boys. And that may be what it is. At this stage in his life, the only way he knows to get people to pay attention to him in a way he can control. Aspies hate uncontrolled social situations. The lunch thing is an example of that. I've been in a similar situation, Here is an unexpected social situation. My first impulse is to stall for time to try to figure out what to do. 15 minutes seems to be overly long, so maybe it became a game later.

Hmm, well, if he is at his most anxious when he first comes over and later relaxes, it sounds like he has to work himself up to it, The fact that he comes over at all likely means he really likes you. A lot. Which would explain the blowup when you were late. He was probably going over every little movement you had made the last time he saw you or everything you said the last time y'all talked to try to determine if you were secretly signaling him you didn't like him any more.

What to do about it? Well, he has to understand there are just some things you cannot tolerate. Maybe get a little flag and wave it when his snarkiness is getting too much. Tell him you know he has difficulting picking up social cues and this is your way of making it obvious.



Good to see that you are benefitting. That is all any of us can do.

A party? Oh my...

That is going to be a lot of strain on you.

Ok, here is the situation. They have done brain studies on AS. One thing that really stands out is in social situations, NTs have most of their brain activity towards the back and at a moderate level, when humans do their pattern matching. With Aspies, though, it is all frontal cortex which means it is all being processed consciously and with logic. And there is a lot of activity, like they are working on very complex problems. Which fits with my experiences. I am on my toes, constantly. For one, like many AS, have trouble focusing on a conversation, the background just swamps everything out. I also have to watch everything all the time and try to figure out what is going on and what rules I can apply to the situation. So you are going to have to watch him. Sooner or later he will overload, and he doesn't sound like he will meltdown with any grace. And when he starts to overload, you need to remove him somewhere.

I find parties to be exhausting, it takes a couple of days to recover. I go to them because they are important to people I care for. They can be fun, but the strain is enormous.

I see three possible senarios:
1. He didn't recognice it as a social gathering to have lunch like that. If you have lunch it means you're hungry and that means you eat, it's primarily how you stop being hungry not a way to spend time with someone.
2. He had droped too much of his shields and needed time to restore them. This happens to me sometimes when I spend time alone with animals, I just relax in a way I can't with people.
3. He was, as you said, testing you.
Or a mix of them.


I have noticed that some NT seems to have allmost meltdowns too, but unlike aspies they have origin in some form of irritation. They hold it inside untill they explode. This makes us very pussled since, to us, it doesn't follow any known pattern.
He can have been in a situation like this before, but not recognice that it's the same situation.
If you think this is the case, talk to him in a aspie way, like when his ex-GF was there, without emotion, like you are rather curious then upset on why he does as he does.


It might be that he simply do not know what to do.
It feels like I'm sitting here and are finding exuses for his beviour...

I think when I showed annoyance it became a game to him. That way he feels in control again. And yes, I have to let him know it isn't OK. It's just that when these things occur, it doesn't seem to be the best time to bring it up. I'd rather wait a few days and then bring it up once I'm no longer in danger of taking it personally.



As I've probably said here before, I guess I do know this intellectually and yet it's quite hard to believe at times.



I'll bring this up. It certainly would be helpful to have a signal like a particular eyebrow raise or something like that if we are to ever go out in public together



Probably one of the reasons it took me so long to accept the notion that he suffers from social anxiety is because we met at a party. While it was work-related for me, he wasn't required to go by his employer. Maybe it was one of those events that had just enough structure for him to feel OK attending? At any rate, thanks for explaining the difference in how we take in social information. I can certainly see by this point that he acts and reacts differently than me in such situations.

He may or may not attend. I've tried to be as neutral as possible about it: I certainly don't want him to feel pressured to come because that will only add to the pre-existing anxiety and he may feel obligated to show. Since he does enjoy my two cats and they calm him, I'll make it so he can go off with them to a quieter part of my home (cats hate parties too).

Last edited by RecentlyBookmarked on 04 Feb 2009, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think it was a mix of #2 and #3. We eat together all the time.



I think you are just trying to provide the "other side," not excusing him

Good point. And yeah, addressing the issue at the time is probably a bad idea.



Understand. But, if you look at some of the other posts here, anxiety rides many with AS. And it can be debilitating.



Hard to say. Or maybe he has worked out some way to get through them without feeling a lot of stress.

Cats are cool. You know where you stand with them at all times.

I saw AF this weekend and we had a really good time. Such a good time I felt sad and frustrated. This sadness and frustration has and does stem from not knowing or understanding what this relationship is, or is not. Is that confusing enough ? And truly, I am at my wit's end. It hurts and it's frustrating to be in this limbo. It's causing resentment and if it grows another centimeter, I'll have to end the relationship so I don't lose my mind.

So, I need a way to ask the question, "What do you want from me?" Or what does he not want? Since I don't know, I have no idea if I can supply it, or even if I want to.

How would you want this question posed to you? How could it be phrased so that you wouldn't feel defensive, or worried, but so that you felt you could give it some thought and actually reply with a tangible answer?

What I'd like to know:
- Is he just interested in friendship?
- Does he not know but wants to "take it slow" because (maybe) his other relationships grew from longterm friendships?
- Is he not sure of what he wants, or not interested in having a romantic relationship at all because the other relationships were just too much work?

Based on the responses I've gotten here, my AF is more sensitive to perceived ultimatums, attacks and threats than most (whether AS or NT). I want to try to get across my hurt and confusion and why it is so damaging (a key point, I think) without him feeling attacked.

Yes, I realize I'm asking you here to "speak" for my friend, but I'm just seeking suggestions. As always, thanks for any insight.