how much should a guy spend on a woman?

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I remember fondly the days when we could pump our own gas. Here in my part of Massachusetts, you can't anymore. I think when it went over $4 a gallon, there were too many drive-offs, and now the stations no longer let you do it. Or maybe it's another reason (since most pumps have to be activated with a credit card before they'll pump).

For what it's worth, I always offer to pump the gas, especially if it's more task-efficient that way, like if the other person has to visit the store or restroom.

I like general "person courtesy" that doesn't boil down to gender. I open doors for people near me, male or female. I pay my own way on dates, usually, but I'm not averse to treating or being treated. But I also walk where I like on the sidewalk.

- mv (F)

Wow, Ragtime, this seems like kind of an offensive response. I sure hope you didn't mean it that way. It's dismissive, in my opinion.

Who are you, anyway? I've never heard from you before, yet suddenly you coming out of nowhere to criticize me.

It wasn't an offensive response, it was a mildly offended response. She's going to take offense at any opportunity, apparently. I wrote all those posts about understanding where people like myth are coming from -- and I do -- only to have hyper's little "Gotcha!" moment above. She's apparently living life out of a theory textbook, so that she doesn't understand that gender plays somewhat into all socialization -- and NOT by any meanness, but by design. Needless to say, I'm done with this thread. If she's offended at either her or my gender, that's her problem. I'm sick of walking on freakin' EGGSHELLS to try to please who cannot be pleased unless you utterly cease being yourself.

I guess real feminist thought is now -- once again -- something that I find tediously pendantic to the point of being silly, not to mention offensive. Goodbye.

Of course you're uptight. You're wearing a buttonup.

It's a shame you're done with this thread, because you'll miss this response.

I don't think it much matters who I am (in relation to you), I just call them like I see them.

I think you'll find, with careful examination, that hyperlexian does not live life out of a textbook, and that her understanding (and more importantly, her research to back her conclusions) is much more nuanced than that. In this thread, we're talking about scope of experience and how we perceive it. There simply is no right or wrong, and your opinion doesn't become fact and it doesn't invalidate your friend's perception, which is what hyperlexian was trying to point out.

I merely suggested that MAYBE you ought to change your tone, because it came across as offensive. IN MY OPINION, which I say right there.

And I find your response (immediately above) pedantic and silly, too. There are many, many more ways to live and experience life than just yours. Guess it's great there is such a variety of people in the world!

I actually had a date follow me to the driver's side door after dinner.

I felt incredibly complimented that she wanted/expected me to open the door for her. And incredibly cute the way she communicated her desire.

I didn't detect any offense in hyperlexian's post, Ragtime. Seemed to me that she was saying the same thing that you said before, some people like it and some people don't but niether is more right or wrong than the other.

And I disagree with your assessement that gender plays into all socialization. Maybe it does, but I prefer not to see the world that way since I think it would probably drive me insane trying to remember and consider people's genders in everything. It's the same way I feel about "subtext" - maybe everything everyone says means something else but I'd prefer to bumble my way along taking everything at face value because I would probably go nuts trying to figure out that "fine" means "I'm mad, go away."

Wow, really?? I would, first of all, have less than no idea what she wanted and probably think she was very weird for following me around. I might even say something like "uh.. that's your side" *point* cuz I would assume she was confused and thought she was the driver.

If on any chance I did realize what she was hinting at, I'd be very annoyed and consider it spoiled and concieted.


Interesting to see different takes on it.

Last edited by myth on 15 Nov 2011, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Its a good observation, I'd just hope that women can be forgiving of a generation of confused/indecisive guys though. I think that's one of the things I have noticed that's still a bit out of skew - ie. we can break with our gender roles but, there's not a lot of forgiveness for it yet.

I think at this point my attitude for courtesies is: if I'd do it for one person I'd do it for anyone. If I hold the door open for a guy and we're part of a group its not particularly weird or 'fruity', neither is it if I don't know the person behind me but I pass the edge of the door off to them. If I get a scowl or an odd reaction from a woman though - I write it off at that point, and admittedly it hasn't happened often, not even sure if its really happened anywhere in memory. I've had times too where when I was out with friends and owed a round of drinks they met up with maybe several girls, I'd buy a round, one of them might even ask "Wait, are you buying this for us because we're girls?", my answer: no, I owed a round, pleased to meet you, if you get me back later great, if not perhaps some other time. At least with that attitude I know that I'm doing right by myself and, if it's unproductive and its logical and self-centered enough to keep me single for a good while - great. I suppose my biggest concern is being true to myself though, IMO if I have to go out on a limb, disobey my own intuition, and then have to deal with both the positive and negative consequences of those decisions as if they were of my own heart - I have more of a problem with being successful that way than unsuccessful being who I really am.

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 15 Nov 2011, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i was offended by something? erm no... you're making all kinds of conclusions about stuff i neither said nor implied.

mv is a highly respected individual on this board. your join date does not reflect your knowledge of this section. but even if that member was a n00b, you don't have any good reason to question them like that, plus it's not a good debate strategy. that member noticed that you were highly dismissive of me, and you went off on them? doesn't look too good for your argument here.

In regards to men being confused: I am of the impression that most women/people still prefer to be treated according to gender and base their identities around gender. Therefore you're safest going with the tradition. Hopefully a person who does not adhere to these standards can politely correct you and you will know not to do that for them anymore.

I don't automatically go off on a guy for doing something chivalrous for me. I'm usually just very confused for a while and then when I catch on I tell them (amusedly) that they are silly and they don't need to do those things for me. The problem comes in (imo) when people expect (rather than apreciate) this behavior and have the audacity to get mad at someone who doesn't treat them like a princess. It becomes the baseline instead of a sweet extra mile.

i think the indecision is pretty much expected on both sides. nobody is certain how anyone else will act in a situation and we all have different ideas about what it all means. i think we've been changed by globalisation, urbanisation, education, immigration, feminism, civil rights movement, age of technology, everything... and nobody knows what the correct rules are anymore. i think gender roles are confusing, but so is the working world, dating in general, family life, etc.

we live in confusing times and i think most open-minded people are pretty much willing to take individual differences into account and don't expect others to follow strict roles. of course there will always be people who overreact and misunderstand and all the rest, but i think most people are pretty cool.

That really depends on how they go about it. If she flies off the handle for you opening the door for them then best thing to do is to make a little mental note to the effect of making sure you spend as little time as possible with that woman in future.

You know what? I always appreciate a gesture, because it means the other person was thinking of me (no matter what gender each of us is). I can't think of anything that I'd bristle at (I'd probably get more wide-eyed/confused trying to understand what was happening) unless it were something that crosses the line, like him ordering food for me in a sit-down restaurant (without his having consulted with me first).

Tequila, I said politely :P

I agree with the comment above. I may have possibly misrepresented myself in this thread when I said I argued with my boyfriend of the time. My beef is not with the guys who think they're supposed to do that but the people/society who taught them that this was the case. I wish society in general was less gender-conscious. I also greatly dislike the people that EXPECT such behavior as if their gender entitles them to special treatment. If you want to be nice to someone, great. You shouldn't walk around expecting everyone to bend over backwards for you and scorn those who don't.

The above-referenced argument was more of laughing-but-slightly-exasperated discussions that we used to have as a result of me standing at the door being very confused for a good minute or so before I finally realized what he expected. So I'd be amused but frustrated because it happened quite a bit so I'd just be like "Dude, stop doing that!! " It then becomes a discussion about whether or not guys should be expected to do that (his viewpoint, and my mom's) or whether discrimination is undesirable in any form (mine).

I will tell you, though, that my first husband did open the door for me every time and I eventually got used to this behavior and no longer got confused or frustrated by it. So I'm not like.. insane about not allowing it or anything. I just prefer interactions to be based on qualities other than gender or other forms of physical appearance.

haha, I saw what you did there with handle

Enter W**d's law of door courtesy:

you hold the door when the person behind is within 2 meters or 2 seconds behind you. Also if someone in front is holding the door multiple times you are only obliged to thank them for the first 2 times. I created some other clauses but they escape me

I was having a laugh at work by creating this rule - no-one will forget it though!

hahaha perfect with the rules! i say "thank you" for the first door, and an awkward "thanks" for the second door.