Rape, Victim-Blaming, and... random stuff about religion

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Most of the attacks I've read about, the late night type of attacks by strangers, happen in parks, underground parking lots or other isolated areas - and the attacker lies in wait. I doubt they're all that selective. Probably the first female that wanders by.

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story ... 7553c50f76

Thanks for tracking down your source for that statistic that wasn't confirmed by the source I was able to find. Still no evidence though that I can see, to refute the other article, on the type of crimes committed or suspected per the Moroccan juveniles per vandalism of private property.

I attempted to find a translated source, as well, but apparently the file is only provided in protected PDF form. If you do find a translated source, in the future, please link it. Some of the graphs and numbers looked very interesting, as I attempted a crude attempt to translate them myself.

I am interested in multiculturalism, and understand there are significant issues when two or more diverse cultures attempt to assimilate with each other. I can see where oppositional cultural differences in dress could create dissension and potential violence in some cases, including sexual violence. But, I certainly wouldn't blame the women in the Netherlands for carrying on with their traditional mode of dress, if this type of factor was evidenced as a significant risk factor.

I haven't seen significant evidence of that factor, yet in the Netherlands, but it has been an issue of controversy in Sweden, as the rates of reported rape in that country are extremely high. There is also though, evidenced issues in the courts there, for rape in general, as the rates of conviction that are not overturned are low for comparable countries, across the entire rape demographic. There is a stereotype reported in some public arenas that it is a country where rape is easier to get away with; unfortunately that stereotype could potentially promote a rape culture as well, that has been presented in joke form in Swedish culture

Pornography is so pervasively available, that there is some evidence that individuals are losing interest in sex with real people, in the US. It could even be associated with steadily falling rates of reported rape in the US, and a lower evidenced frequency of teenage sexual activity. But many other factors are likely at play as well.

The issues of neutrality and clean-up discussed in the talk pages of both Wiki articles are not relevant to the points I made in my previous post. There is no argument per the factors associated with sexual violence, that attractive clothing should be added as a factor, in the talk pages associated with that article. There is a dispute over one of the factors, education, apparently not a major factor specific to the US.

The factors of residence, strangers, and youth, were additionally evidenced by the FBI report.

I didn't claim that the blame for rape per method of dress or the jokes make the rape culture, I said they promote a "rape culture", when they minimize the offense.

There is no question per the concerns of neutrality discussed on the talk page of the article on "rape culture" that blaming women for rape per their method of dress or jokes that minimize the serious nature of the offense promote what is referred to as "rape culture", a term and concept that has been discussed in society since the 70's, in the US.

Being a female under the age of 18, statistically puts a female under a greater level of risk of being raped in the US, overall, but there is no evidence that the way a women dresses, puts her at a higher statistical risk, overall, for rape.

Even if there was a higher statistical evidenced risk, rape is a violent crime. There is no justification for it, so no one can be blamed for the crime, other than the person(s) that commits the crime.

Anything could play a role as a factor per specific rape cases, depending on the psychological assessment of the offender, including clothing, lack of clothing, or too much clothing, anything that might play a role in the violent psyche of a sexual predator, but those factors are not evidenced as significant factors associated with the crime, in the US.

There are real evidenced risk factors that warrant solutions, such as getting out of a sexually abusive relationship, and reporting crimes of sexual abuse, but blaming the victim for the actual sexual abuse, is not evidenced as a constructive method to describe the violent crime. It is evidenced as harming the psychological welfare of the victim, as well as promoting what is understood as "rape culture".

THAT also has nothing to do with the topic of the OP ever finding a lover! Seriously, enough of this rape BS!

I attempted to find a translated source, as well, but apparently the file is only provided in protected PDF form. If you do find a translated source, in the future, please link it. Some of the graphs and numbers looked very interesting, as I attempted a crude attempt to translate them myself.



Cultures in Europe are not at all trying to assimilate. As it is now, there seems to be - for almost every country - one dominant culture and one or several counter cultures. Even when we were being lied to about multiculturalism being largely succesful in spite of these figures, we noticed how Turkish people remained together in neighbourhoods, even if they succeeded economically, and how they built business networks around other Turkish businessmen. We also noticed how Antilleans preferred to talk only to Antilleans, to have relationships only with Antilleans, and to - again - live in neighbourhoods with other Antilleans. A lot of these groups, especially the islamic ones, seem to categorically refuse our values, often refuse to work, but accept welfare. I'm not sure how their current rules for sexual aggression are, but a woman without a headscarf walking a dog is worth at least verbal abuse by many Moroccan young men.

Basically, we could declare several neighbourhoods in The Hague, Rotterdam and Amsterdam part of Turkey, Morocco or Aruba, and the demographics wouldn't change significantly. In some neighbourhoods, the concentration of ethnic Turks is higher than in Turkey itself. What's also amusing is that we've received mostly the most culturally-conservative people, so you can expect to see more women in headscarves in large parts of The Hague than you can in Ankara or Tangier. That's probably what's breeding their cultural oppositing to women who dress loosely. In fact, one sociologist took the liberty of digging up a term to describe vastly-different sexual morals in Moroccan men's approach to western women as opposed to muslim women - Madonna-whore complex. She argued a lot of them suffered from that, and were only genuinely able to respect conservatively-clothed muslim women.



You can't blame them, but you can warn them. As it is, if someone is foreign, the justice system will tend to see them as a victim even if they've committed heinous crimes. Judges are bound to very lenient rules for anything. As long as you punish people whose cultural idea of punishment is a long, uncomfortable prison sentence or even castration by giving them a fine and a talk with a psychologist, you're not getting across.



Sweden seems rather paranoid when it comes to that type of legislation.



How's that? I joke about a lot of things I wouldn't consider doing, and the people who laugh at those jokes wouldn't either.



As I said, prevention. You can almost guarantee rape by being a woman, putting on a specific set of clothes and walking around a neighbourhood at a certain time of night. It would be nice if that wasn't true, but it is - and there's nothing anyone can do about it at this point in time. You can't give a heartfelt speech that converts all rapists into friendly old men who just want to water the plants in their garden and listen to the birds singing.



There seems to be an absence of research involving any victim's clothing either way. There's nothing immediately supporting it, but the only sources actively contradicting it are militantly feminist, and often immediately start by assuming the most paranoid of feminist fringe theories as a base for research. When I did a quick search on Google earlier this evening, one of the first results was a Yahoo Answers thread in which someone immediately dismissed the theory and the discussion was over.



We could return to the original topic, or we could have this one split. I'd favour the second - the original topic hasn't been discussed for about ten pages now, and the discussion seems unable to return.

There's some truth in the idea that most rapes are done by serial rapists. I know that most date rapes are committed by serial offenders (idk about stranger rapes), and that these individuals are under the impression that all men are secretly rapists and so their behavior is normal. (that's the real issue with rape jokes, victim blaming, and rape culture in general. In the minds of serial rapists, rape is normalized. When you tell a rape joke, you're telling "that guy" that you are on his side.)

Rapists select for vulnerability. They're looking for someone easy to take down. This is why mentally handicapped people, people who live in homes or have live in care, and children are at higher risk for rape and sexual assault.

I didn't start it, and I'm not going to just stand by and let the victims get blamed and have all sorts of propaganda about being more understanding of rapists get spewed. I'll respond as long as those sort of posts are being made, so if you want it to stop, don't look here.

I've seen some self-contradictions in my time, but that one is pretty notable.

There is actually a lot of research on clothing - in terms of how much damage promoting rape culture does to the victims. It is a known risk factor - and you're increasing it. I doubt your intent here has anything at all to do with a concern for risk though, so I imagine you'll rationalize your way into continuing. Nice how you slip in a little bigotry against minorities too ... I'm sure you're so very concerned for groups like women, foreigners of some other skin colour, etc.

You're also never going to convince him. Most people form an opinion then stick to it regardless of any and all facts presented to them.

There is no justification for predators/manipulators/rapists/etc. None. The person doing the action is 100% responsible for their actions.
Why defend rapists unless you want to minimize the evil of it... maybe they want to be one themselves?

If you have no love for rapists, STOP BLOODY WELL DEFENDING THEM!

I know that. I'm not trying to convince him; he's a lost cause. But there's always an audience on the internet, and you can't let rape culture be promoted without showing opposition. People would get the idea that it's ok.



Blue, have you been reading my posts or getting them mixed up with HDM's? You might want to run back over this conversation a wee bit more carefully. Just saying.

There is no assurance that the audience, particularly per mass media, regardless of the medium, is not going to include a rapist when violent rape is minimized as crime in a joke. Freedom of speech allows it so it is completely up to one's personal discretion, whether to do something like that. I have never heard you tell a rape joke, so it doesn't appear like you are part of that segment of the issue, per what is defined as a problem in promoting a "rape culture".

If you as an individual overheard a group of individuals actually planning to rape individuals per violent intent based on a different mode of dress, in your neighborhood, it seems to me it would be the right thing to do in warning your neighbors per that perceived risk and reporting it to the authorities.

It appears that you are backing away from the suggestion that women are in part to blame for their mode of dress. That's up to you, but if you hate the act of rape, which it seems like you do, the evidenced best direction is to keep the blame focused on the rapist.

A warning of perceived risk, based on objective data is not unreasonable. But there is evidenced harm to women and the perpetuation of a rape culture, as it is defined, per blaming women for the offense based on their mode of dress.

As it stands now, if there is a neighborhood where rapes are evidenced as happening often when one passes through, that is evidence that it could be a risky place to walk through, regardless of mode of dress if one has a choice. I can't imagine telling someone that clothing themselves from head to toe, would prevent the evidenced risk, and I don't think you would either.

Changing the rhetoric from blame to perceived risk, is reasonable in my opinion. One can reasonably argue risk factors, including mode of dress. But in my opinion, and based on the evidence as it exists, the blame rhetoric is of potential harm to rape victims not offenders.

[img][800:960]http://i.imgur.com/EmMnO.jpg[/img]

I wasn't referring to you, silly. Perhaps I could have been clearer...

Slow it down with the nitpicking. You can create a mathematical certainty by sticking to some ground rules.
De Bijlmer, southeastern Amsterdam, between late in the evening and the middle of the night. Be a woman, or they'll just rob you. Ask anyone for directions, especially if they're sitting there in a group.



I'm actually all in favour of risk control, and that's all I'm really discussing.



Just saying it's mostly muslim men - very specifically - who are saying a woman's clothing determines whether or not she's fair game here. Incidentally, they can also get away with it relatively easily, and some parts of their general group encourage men to brag about their criminal record. That's another problem - if they'd do that in Morocco, against another man's conservatively-dressed woman, they'd never see the light of day again. Here, they're let off relatively easily, in part because our justice system is lacking the guts to lock them up for a long time, even when a lot of people just want them killed or locked up for life, and in part because they're still often seen as victims of circumstance by judges who make no secret of being members of liberal political parties. Instead of being punished, they get free legal counsel, talks to a psychologist and a very lenient sentence.

For all you non Europeans deciding to bash HDM, he is making a very valid point about attitudes towards white women that are endemic in the muslim communities in EUROPE.

Here is Baroness Warsi, a muslim woman and the most senior muslim political figure in Britain admitting that the muslim community does have an attitude problem when it comes to white women.

"There is a small minority of Pakistani men who believe that white girls are fair game. And we have to be prepared to say that. You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first. This small minority who see women as second class citizens, and white women probably as third class citizens, are to be spoken out against."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18117529
Trevor Phillips, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said it was "fatuous" to deny racial and cultural factors.

Trevor Phillips is a black guy who is completely ideologically committed to multiculturalism and not some raving racist.

When the BBC decided to interview a wide selection of young muslim men for a programme about the issue, things went disastrously wrong because every single one of the guys they interviewed felt the need to justify the actions of child rapists by pointing out that 'they bring it on themselves' and 'they dress like whores, what do you expect?'

DC, though I acknowledge the resource, it says nothing about how women's clothing affects their perception.

It seems to me as if those men are targeting very young women because they are young and vulnerable (under 16). It seems ingrained in their thinking that they think of women as second class, then white women as third class. But it still seems as if they go after the easy targets who cannot defend themselves, regardless of clothes. Whether that particular white woman or child is dressed in attractive clothing may or may not be the deciding factor if she will be raped, I don't know based on the article.

Plus, the way she spoke out about it seemed to be so that religious or other cultural leaders of Pakistanis can condemn that kind of behaviour and perhaps make a change in the mode of thinking of their men. It did not seem to be a warning to young white girls to change their behaviour, though one cannot throw caution to the wind.