Who are the Self Proclaimed Nice Guys here?

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Jono: Okay, I'll bite. The following are types of manipulative behavior which are or can be employed by people fitting the "nice person" description. (Please notice the use of quotations--for the sake of clarity, when I'm talking about pseudo-niceness, I'll use quotations.)

Lying to someone to get them to like you.

Attempting to use any combination of the following to cause a relationship to occur, force some sort of intimate contact and/or perpetuate a relationship: force, coercion, guilt, threats, emotional blackmail (the "if you cared about me" sort, typically), actual blackmail, whining, backstabbing, passive-aggression and/or cruelty.

Attempting to use the friends and/or relatives of the other person to cause or perpetuate a relationship or some sort of intimate contact.

Attempting to stalk or force interpersonal contact on someone for the sake of forcing them into a relationship, perpetuating a relationship of forcing some sort of intimate contact.

Please note that some of these behaviors are actually criminal in your respective jurisdictions. The use of the word "nice" indicates how the person adjudicates their own behavior, and NOT how that behavior would be otherwise adjudicated. There is a relationship in between "nice" and how that person is perceived--for instance, while most people agree that stalking someone is over the line, one can still be adjudicated nice by others while doing things like using coercion to get sex, based on the knowledge available to the person doing the judging.

If you do the things I listed above, you are not nice, even though you may think you are because you give to good causes, or you hold doors open for other people, or believe you have the best intentions. People who do those things are "nice guys/women", NOT nice guys/women, no matter what they tell themselves.

The issue of being identified as nice vs "nice" by others is important because of the value which is placed on certain kinds of niceness (like being polite) in many societies--you can be polite and still be a very bad person (potentially by doing some of the things on the list above), and people who don't know you have done those things may think you're nice because all they've seen is you being polite.... right up until you behave badly in front of them (at which point, it's typically too late to stop you).

Being considered a nice person comes with some perks, depending on who you are. There are people, for instance, who use the appearance of being nice to get away with some seriously bad things. This would be why it's important to understand the difference between nice and "nice."

I've noticed that kind men who can't get dates and wonder why are, quite often, immediately deemed "Nice Guys," and a group of women (and some men) will often come down on them in these forms.

A lady here started a thread recently about Nice Guys and how horrible they are, and I tried to address this point. I think a lot of guys are afraid to even question what's wrong because they're immediately met with the "Clearly you're a manipulative jerk who feels entitled" line. Not very supportive.

Interestingly, I don't claim to be a nice guy, but the OP of that thread deemed me such, without ever addressing the point I was making. She was just looking for an excuse to go after one of those dreaded "nice guys."

Yes, I think some people claiming to be Nice Guys might be self-entitled manipulators, but I think there is also a feel-good emotion women (and some men) get from putting down socially unsuccessful men who are simply wondering where they went wrong. It's almost like these women get off from reiterating the debased social status of the man asking the question, rather than offer any advice or support. Like he deserves it, simply for asking the question.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread.

Women like confidence in a male pure and simple, NICE is something women use to attract and manipulate males, consider NICE a gender roll thing. stop being nice, be good, be kind, be thoughtful, be many things but not nice, it makes males seem weak needy and manipulative, if not even clingy.. women don't like that in men. Just think about why women go after the jerks, they seem confident to them, not nice. women will chase after the men they feel they have to earn, but if you just be nice they lose interest, to them your being to much of a kiss arss, no challenge. they don't want someone they feel they can walk all over.

I keep wanting to comment on this but keep forgetting..doh

anyway

I think there is an issue of male (Nice Guy TM) attention seeking - this is why the bold bit happens, it's because the same person has presented the same views many times over and have been given advice but have not taken the advice and keep coming back with same complaint expecting a different result and lamenting their poor luck. And sure, in a lot of cases on this forum at least, the person in question is probably too damaged to make use of the advice, it's not that they don't want to, it's just simply that they are not able.

The trouble I think is that people who are too damaged to be a useful and functional member of society still seem to think they are entitled to love and relationship. This probably sounds mean to all you Christians who were brought up to think that God loves you all and you seem to take that to mean that other people should love you too, but it's simply not true.
The simple math is this - if you have something worthwhile to offer others - others will seek out your company. If you don't, they won't

I have no idea what your gender is, but I find that post very offensive. As a Woman, I don't have those attitudes and resent being represented as someone who is that way. So, you know...

Men are such jerks

And some people are genuinely better off not being in a relationship, and they should not keep trying to force themselves to find someone just because that's what everyone else seems to be doing.

@Nick - so do you really not understand that 'some' means 'a portion of and not all', because your last post seems to imply that what I was claiming is that all persons with disability have nothing to offer other people which would be obviously nonsense.

I did not read the word Some in your post so it seemed like a blanket generalization to me

I mean - nobody is entitled to love and relationships, but some people come across as if they believe it's something they should be almost given for wanting it

sly279: I had a boyfriend when I was in high school who deliberately made friends with all my friends and family so that when we broke up, he got regular updates on where I was and what I was doing, and often "accidentally" showed up where I was. He filled their ears constantly with how much he cared about me, and they interpreted his interest as benign and helped him find me and/or told him any time I did anything with anyone else.

He was... not... benign in private.

So yes, some people will do that sort of thing.

sly279: I had a boyfriend when I was in high school who deliberately made friends with all my friends and family so that when we broke up, he got regular updates on where I was and what I was doing, and often "accidentally" showed up where I was. He filled their ears constantly with how much he cared about me, and they interpreted his interest as benign and helped him find me and/or told him any time I did anything with anyone else.

He was... not... benign in private.

So yes, some people will do that sort of thing.