the jerk double standard

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1. I'm not shy
2. Society doesn't favour introverts, if it did, I would probably be married. You can't just "get relationships or sex" if you prefer to do crafts at home as opposed to actually do things and meet people.

Maybe you missed it, but people who didn't come out bashing the entire opposite sex are now taking fire as well.


The first two are obviously false, but the fact that more men are complaining about not being able to get a partner seems to indicate that that men face a greater stigma for being single than women do. Men don't have a monopoly on complaining in general. Men also face a bigger stigma for showing emotional vulnerability, which is why you see more bitterness and anger rather than people merely complaining. Do women have it easier in general? No. They just face different problems. Women have struggles men don't have to worry about as much. Since this is a sub-forum called "love and dating" and our culture heavily stigmatizes men for being single or a virgin, you're going to see more men than women complaining.


I doubt anyone is personally angry at you for having two x-chromosomes. It isn't just one side that's making false claims and generalizations either. I keep hearing "men just want sex".


I really haven't seen any debate going on here at all. I see a bunch of bickering and stuff that's bordering on flame wars. Personally, I'd like to just ban the phrase "nice guy". It seems like everyone has their own definition for what a "nice guy" is. Similar goes for "jerk". Everyone has their own definition for "jerk". Talking about this crap is pointless when nobody even agrees on what they're actually talking about.

....or that men just complain about being single more than women do.



Complain all you want, but you can expect blow-back when you start with the negative generalizations.



There have been plenty of men on WP who have made it explicitly clear that they don't view women in a particularly positive light.



And I've seen these claims challenged. As they should be. If you're going to make negative generalizations, don't be surprised when people defend themselves.



The only "flaming" I see going on is directed at the guys who are bragging about being emotionally abusive towards their girlfriends. If you're referring to Hopper's posts, he merely challenged Klowglas' worldview. If you don't want your opinions scrutinized, you should probably shouldn't be posting them on the internet. Challenging someone's opinions isn't the same as "flaming."

And if you just want sympathy and support, post in The Haven.



Welcome to the wonderful world of communication. Most words are, by their very nature, vague and imprecise.

Why do they start complaining in the 1st place? What starts it? What is the root?




How do these negative generalizations develop in the first place?




and why is that? What is the major cause of this?



How do people come to these negative generalizations in the first place?





You're right they're emotionally abusive towards their girlfriends and they brag about it. They're a part of what is wrong with this screwed up culture. One thing they do need to understand is correlation does not equal causation.



Personally, what I want are solutions not sympathy. I think this is a part of the wider problem at hand which is our over-sexed culture which devalues things and makes them to a business exchange. Things are treated as a commodity and a hustling way in our culture (The USA). What I think we need is an overall to how the two opposite genders are supposed to court each other. Part of my recommendations is this.

1. Both genders are allowed to ask whomever they like out in a direct manner.
2. The person asked can say yes or no.
3. Unless there is direct, explicit and enthuastic yes then assume there will be no sex.
4. Do favors for people because you want to help not expect anything in return.





Interesting! I never would've thought of it that way but how do you figure so?

Sounds like reverse sexism to believe there's no real reason. Men just complain more because they're inferior, right? There's no stigma for men being a "virgin" (most ret*d concept ever if you ask me) in our silly little culture. I guess you're the type of aspie that has problems with empathy so its probably no use arguing. Some combination of lack of empathy and a need to flame.


I'm not complaining, so why drag me into it? You still have to explain why pretty much every guy on here who complains gets attacked, regardless of whether they made sexist remarks themselves. They are guilty of being sexist by proxy.


Do you view all men who complain of not being able to find a partner in a negative light?


I don't see defending. I see attacking.


I don't know what universe you live in where "cry w*k" isn't flaming. I'd prefer if people just be honest and admit that condescending screeds filled with all kinds of unfounded pseudo-psychoanalysis that accuse someone of pretty much everything short of being a rapist IS IN FACT AN ATTACK and not merely a "challenge". People really aren't that oblivious. They know when they're being attacked. Even aspies can sense gratuitous condescension.


Black-and-white thinking. There are degrees of civility between "sympathy and support" and open attacks.


Regardless, I think "nice guy" is a word meme that needs to be flushed down the toilet. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being genuinely nice, but "nice guy" has become a meaningless derogatory term. It can mean anything from someone who's shy, lacks confidence, etc... all the way to someone who is truly bitter and hates women. So, when you collectively slam "nice guys" you're slamming a whole range of people, regardless of whether they act obnoxious and wear fedora's or conform to some other internet meme they may or may not even be aware of.

uhh wow what a great example, no chance ur momma wrongly counted on him only being a super-jerk towards others, but not to her personally.

Klowglas and I have some history on this matter.

Oh, I don't doubt he's unhappy. I object to his making himself a martyr from this unhappiness. I object to his assertions that such unhappiness means he's a better person than anyone who is making a go of a relationship.

I think he's obssessed with power because of his insistence that all relationships are based on it, and the reason he doesn't have a relationship is because he has no power. Though he does seem to have defined 'power' to basically mean 'all attributes someone else may find appealing in you', which I find a bit much.

I personally haven't said such Nice Guys just need to get laid. But there is a particular pattern of thought amongst many Nice Guys that shows just what they think of women, and it's not nice. I don't doubt Klowglas is lonely. Anyone who is lonely has my sympathy. I will, for a little while, let a certain amount of bitter-fuelled BS go. It's not the low self-esteem I object to. It's the narcissism, the martyrdom.

I think his idea that women have 'power' because they can 'use' sex to get someone - well, you yourself have made clear what that situation is actually like. I didn't say it didn't happen. What I said was it is ridiculous to suppose that counts as 'power' or 'luck'. Now, in the first instance, I'm trying to nip BS like that in the bud. Because it can easily blossom into really quite awful misogyny. I am also aware thinking that being able to 'use' sex to get a man - dismissive of any other characteristic than that he is a man who agrees to be with the woman so he can have sex with her - is a positive surely is a position come to from low self esteem - that having anyone is better than having no-one. Whether or not it can help to argue back on his 'it's all about power, of which I have none' and 'I'm too good for a woman to love' (as I say, a narcissitic and martyish kind of low self esteem), I don't think that letting that stuff go is going to do him any good.

What's more - saying that a woman can always 'use' sex to get a man, I mean, that doesn't strike me as a nice thing to say. Frankly, it seems pretty jerky.

Here's my theory, repeated from earlier:

You know how those who fervently denounce sex, particularly of the homosexual sort, are so often found in the arms and legs and nether regions of people who are not their spouse, behaving in a way they purportedly loathe? Same thing here. Nice Guys, including the sort Klowglas has down as the 'real' nice guys, envy jerks. They want to be them. They're just crap at it. It is the only way they can conceive of interacting with a woman, barring a kind of bizarre place-her-on-a-pedestal thing, in an embarrasingly crude playing out of the whore/Madona conflict. "That jerk treats her like crap and still gets laid. I was nice to her and get nothing. Whore."

They want to be jerks, but for some reason, aren't. It's how they end up still being jerky, but in a passive-aggressive, unassertive kind of way. Or you get the sort Klowglas has in mind, who paint humanity as power-crazed and then situate themselves outside/above of it.

Of course, though far too many are, and though there's a little jerkness in most every man and woman who ever walked the earth (it's part and parcel of the human condition), most men are not jerks. They get by with just the occasional act of jerkiness (which tend to decline as maturity grows), and plenty end up in good, mutually fulfilling relationships. They don't envy jerks, so don't fixate on them.

But the Nice Guys, projecting their internal drama, their desire to be a jerk, into/onto the world, see jerks everywhere, like the puritans who see sex everywhere. They make everyone else bear their desire to be a jerk, so they can try and pitch themselves as the opposite. Only they're still within, and fully accepting of, the values of the jerk.

Their inner-jerk is strong, and at war with their inner-but-I'm-not-a-jerk. So, we end up with a synthesis - the Nice Guy. Jerk motivations, 'if I do this maybe I'll be able to seem like a decent person to myself and others' actions. And, of course, the 'nice guys finish last' drama, to give them a powerful narrative.

And it's nothing particularly new.



Klowglas said that - as far as he's concerned, men just want to get laid, women just want security. A lot of Nice Guys say that, too. It's how they differentiate themselves, because they don't just want sex, they also want to be 'nice' to the woman.



I first happened across its meme-use in that Nice Guys of OKCupid blog. Time and again, said Nice Guys would:

i) Call themselves a 'nice guy' which is:

a) a little presumptive and

b) is that all you've got? You're 'nice'?

ii) Reveal the extent of their niceness by complaining about how women only date Jerks (or bastards, or a**holes, etc), leaving them all alone. The sluts. And

iii) Be found to have made sexist, misogynist, or plain not-nice remarks of varying intensity and scale.

A Nice Guy is the manchild who lacks the self-awareness and dignity to see this gap between their purported, poor-me Nice Guy and their actual asshattery in thought and, likely, behaviour.


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ETA: this is a thing of beauty. Thoroughly objectionable man talks his girlfriend into an open relationship. Gets pissed off when she has a better time of it than him:

http://www.redditlog.com/snapshots/554905

I reckon I could make good on a wager that he sees himself as a 'nice guy'.

Nobody in history has ever been rejected for being too nice. The only time being a "nice" ever comes up is in the context of a rejection is "You're a nice guy, but......."

Somehow an entire generation of bitter socially awkward men misinterpretted this soft rejection tactic completely out of context to mean that they're not being jerks enough, react poorly, actually making themselves mostly undateable in the process.

1. It is because a lot of people do not use critical thinking today and was not really taught it. Yes, one is supposed to be courteous and show common decency. This is where it all breaks down. This may be necessary but is not sufficient. For example, one needs gas for a car to start but gas will not guarantee a car will start. Being nice may be required but will not guarantee anything.

One needs to develop himself like get himself some hobbies, read poetry, read science articles. Develop your own interests, get plenty of sleep, eat right and exercise. Understand yourself by doing a personality profile and/or and going to a psychologist to get a psychological work up. Once you work on yourself create a set of characteristics one would like to see in a potential date. Be at places where they will most likely be it. If they share some of your hobbies, all the more better. None of this will guarantee anything. Overall, just enjoy your life and have fun.

2. Not losing one's virginity especially for a man is considered a stigma in today's society. It is the opposite of the Victorian period in which sex before marriage had an attached stigma.

Truthfully, sometimes I wish I went back to being a virgin.

There's a big difference between being a virgin and being hungup on your virginity. Just like there's a big difference between having a disability (Autism) and being hung up on your disability.

Barely three years ago I was in the same boat. I wasn't a virgin but I had only ever been with one person in a long distance relationship that lasted most of my adult life. When it was over, I found myself at a complete loss (26 and I didn't really know how to talk to girls.) Eventually my underlying issue (my Autism) was figured out and I didn't handle it well at first. I hit rock bottom was convinced I would never be loved becouse of my wierdness. I would make romantic overtures and get rejected or taken advantage of numerous times because my ineptitude and nievetae. I was never angry but my bitterness and depression was quite apperent. Everything I told myself was just my sad excuse to not make the attitude changes necessary to even be capable of dating.

Eventually and through a lot of painful introspection (the kind I'm willing to bet most guys with Nice Guy tendencies aren't willing to truly partake in) I changed my attitude. I stopped being bitter and self concious about my social awkwardness and instead learned to joke about it. To even use my awkwardness to my advantage. On my dates I made it clear that I was awkward and looking for other wierdos like myself. Rather than putting on heirs (like pretending to be swave or acting like an aloof jerk) I was very up front and very nonchalant about it. I'm sure that was a dealbreaker for 99% of women, but it made me all the more noticable to the 1% who were actually worth bothering with. Suddenly, I went from having no luck with females to finding myself sometimes overwelmed by the attention (compatible people tend to be similiary intense, fyi.)

Eventually, over the course of about a year of casual dating and sexual exploration it had gotten to the point where I had found myself having to play heartbreaker more often than the other way around. When my girlfriend (whom I met on OKCupid and now live with) decided she was ready to commit, I found myself having to break things off with two other girls I was seeing who wanted a serious relationship with me. What I learned is that it's actually just as painful if not more so do the rejecting. It was a great little bit of Karma in action, finding myself affectively empathizing with the girls who had turned me down prior. It's a bit of empathy that people with "Nice Guy" tendencies don't seem willing to consider.

Yes. Being socially awkward and inexperienced makes dating difficult. But being socially awkward, inexperienced and a miserable dick about it makes it all but impossible.

No, being a virgin, even if you're not hung up on it, is still considered taboo for a man after they hit about 21. Try being 27 and having a woman find out you're a virgin. They will treat you like the damn devil himself.

About men facing greater stigma for being emotional, yeah, that really does happen. It's why the jerks triumph over more sensitive guys. Men, according to society, are supposed to be brooding, but also outwardly jerky/angry. This is a generalization, but it's one that is forced onto men these days. Odd how outward anger is allowed, but inward anger isn't, however. One is no better than the other.

On "accepting your awkwardness," That bit just sounds like a lot of luck to me. I accepted I was awkward long, long ago, and "joked about it" too, but it never got me any success. Awkwardness is looked as at either naivete, or worse, retardation. The only way it might not is if you have looks, money, or a combination of the two. Otherwise, you may as well be dead. It's the same thing with being a jerk. It's allowed if you're attractive. The more attractive you are, the more you can get away with. I mean, look at Rodney Alcala and Ted Bundy, for chrissakes.

bahahahahaha. You know, on both sides, it seems like a really sh***y position to be in. But hey, the one that was issued the ultimatum got the better experiences. Sympathy definitely goes to the girl here, not the guy.

Guess what happens when you are the one that wants the open releationship, or decides that you don't want the girl anymore? She isn't going to be crawling back, and I sure don't see it happening with this guy here. This guy got nothing more than an ego bruising. She was already forced to feel the emotional heartbreak. Why go back unless to close off the relationship altogether and dump the guy?

Jerky behaviour has it's limits. But a jerk who still wants their girl and can communicate this has a better chance to keep the girl.

I think you have to look for people who aren't full of themselves. When looking for a date, discriminate by personality, not physical attractiveness.


There's a disconnect between what you see in movies and real life. Having outward anger in real life actually sucks. It just scares people and pushes people away from you. Please, you don't want to be a rage-aholic, believe me. It's a curse. It doesn't take away pain, it makes it worse.


The world isn't exactly fair and there are a lot of shallow people, but you're seeing things way too black-and-white. There are people out there who are not like that. They're just harder to find. I think you just need better strategies for finding like-minded people. That's really the biggest issue. It can be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

"Luck" helps but all the luck in the world isn't going to do you a bit of good if you're actively sabbotaging yourself before you even try. The fact that you're comparing yourself unfavorably to a pair of Serial Killers and acting like virginity is the modern equivalent of leprasy makes me think BS on your accepting your awkwardness claim. If the attitude in your post is in anyway indicative of your attitude about women in real life, I'm not surprised you are struggling.

This just proves my larger point about generalizing. You're logic is based on several subjectively faulty assumptions:

A. You generalize men who are successful as jerks and claim thats the main reason they have success.

B. You assume no women want sensitive guys and will run for the hills simply because of inexperience.

This board is filled with examples of socially awkward guys (myself included) who have found successful relationships. They aren't all attributable to luck.

Let me turn this around on you. What exactley makes you an expert? As a self professed inexperienced virgin, how can you claim to actually know what any women want? Is it at all possible that your lack of experience has lead you to make false assumptions about how to handle the opposite gender?

Having to reject women because you have feelings elsewhere is painful indeed IMO. I've rejected at least three since I started dating my girlfriend, and two of them handled it fine. The one that didn't... either I didn't communicate it clearly enough or they just didn't take the hint quick enough. It is also recommended to be careful making friends with women as well since it can easily upset the girlfriend if she picks up on this girl liking you quicker than you do.

I also remember turning someone down in the past for a lady I shouldn't have bothered with and I remember the reaction I got. It wasn't good to say the least. Then this girl I shouldnt have bothered with: she eventually started putting herself down a lot in front of me, and I then realized what it must be like for others that care about you to see you bash yourself. It's not fun to deal with.