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The UCSB shooter--an Aspie with a rant against women

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Hopper
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25 May 2014, 9:35 am

BornThisWay wrote:
I know I'm setting myself up for an attack, but I need to speak out on this...

Let me begin by stating in the strongest way possible.- I totally disagree with the viewpoint of Archedevillius, but I don't think he should have been banned for expressing his (wrongheaded) opinions. I do think it would have been appropriate for those of us in the majority opinion to attack the content of his post.

Banning him does not solve the problem of his mindset. He advocated Aspie supremacy and sympathy for a murderer....yechh - this guy needs help in acquiring a more mature mindset...will he get it here amongst those who 'get it'...not now, Now what will he do? And who is going to care more about him and other Aspie isolates...who else has a clue as to what it's like to deal with rejection and how to overcome these issues?

Hate the act, not the actor...ban the action, not the doer...attack the opinion, not the person. Now he'll go off and stew somewhere, not be able to interact with us.One of the major threads in these spree killings that have involved Aspies is isolation and the twisted response and violent mindset they adopt. If this issue cannot be debated here...in all its nastiness even, then where can it be debated...Facebook? CNN? FOX News?

For a lot of Aspies, a good deal of our social interaction is media facilitated. Please bring Archedevillies back - not so we can agree with him (blech), but so that he stays in the loop and does not become the 'next one'.

Archevillius' banning aside...

yeah, the entitlement culture that Elliott Rodgers was raised in is definitely part of the problem - and he's a product of that culture.



Archdevilius has posted a number of views that are pretty lousy, and has been quite obtuse as to why people thought them so. Anytime someone has tried to pull him up on the matter, he has retreated into writing his interlocuter off as judgemental or prudish. I don't see how his mindset could be changed by such interaction, but rather entrenched - the more he repeats his lines, the more he believes them. If we - and he - are lucky, experience will change him for the better. But some people go through life and don't learn a damn thing.

After Rodger's actions particularly, I think it's very sensible for WP owner/mods/members to put as much distance between that mindset and themselves. It is alarming how much of what he said could have been lifted from some posts here. I do not think such a mindset is at all an AS one. Those with AS who find themselves thinking similarly probably do.


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You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


marshall
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25 May 2014, 9:41 am

Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?



tarantella64
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25 May 2014, 9:43 am

marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?


Other men.



kraftiekortie
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25 May 2014, 9:55 am

And women sometimes, too.

But all that is pretty irrelevant. A murder was committed upon innocent people The shooter distorted everything to a psychotic degree. I don't blame society--I blame the shooter. I don't blame the messenger--I blame how the shooter received the mesage.



Hopper
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25 May 2014, 9:59 am

tarantella64 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.


People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?


Other men.


Yep.

And it wasn't that he wanted something he couldn't get. It was that (in his mind) he was entitled to something he didn't have. It's felt not so much as an unfulfilled desire, but a loss of something you could swear you once had; something wasn't kept from you so much as taken from you.


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


SoftwareEngineer
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25 May 2014, 10:02 am

tarantella64 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?


Other men.


Very sexist comment.



tarantella64
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25 May 2014, 10:06 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?


Other men.


Very sexist comment.


Not at all. By and large women don't look at a man and rank him in some hierarchy according to how many women he's slept with or might be able to sleep with. Women want to know if a man is nice, sane, solvent; if we're looking at hierarchy, it's to do with career status (and implicit ability and accomplishments, not just the title itself), not women bedded. The bedpost-notch method of accounting, the question of whether a guy's a "stud", is something that generally comes up in men's conversation, not women's.

You'd do well to do some reading on how patriarchal, sexist attitudes held by men hurt other men, not just women.



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25 May 2014, 10:08 am

More sexism. Your venom toward men seems hauntingly like the shooter's video rant.



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25 May 2014, 10:28 am

adriantesq wrote:
Betcha the government of the state where he resides doesn't admit it was their fault for failing to give him adequate diagnostic and treatment therapy to have prevented this from happening or the United Nations World Health Organisation for failing to legislate that signatory states should institute such a diagnostic and treatment therapy - betcha it'll be called the boy's fault or the parents' faults but not his school's fault or their doctor's fault - someday someone will have the courage to sue the authorities for corporate or contributory manslaughter in such cases and chuck the fat-cat governors and chief execs of them in prison and throw away the key - I am sick up to here - the gills - with these fat cats getting bonuses for not doing their jobs properly - people like us wrongplanet peeps wouldn't last a minute in a job in which we were as incompetent as that lot - so how can they manage it but we cant?


While I 100% agree that America's approach to healthcare in general is a farce, this dude had access to insane amounts of money. Plus, there's pretty much no way he wasn't covered under his parent's insurance. The thing is, narcissistic personality disorder can be impossible to treat effectively. And with an underlying neurological condition like ASD, it's that much harder. The tragic thing is, there's pretty much nothing anyone could have done to "fix" him mentally.



marshall
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25 May 2014, 10:29 am

tarantella64 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?

Other men.

It has nothing to do with men or women. It has to do with culture in general. cubedemon6073 is the only person who sees the big picture. Everyone else here is just looking for a target to punch.



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25 May 2014, 10:33 am

tarantella64 wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The thing Rodger speaks most of is his entitlement. He should have a woman, but doesn't. The only answer is he is being purposely deprived - he considers himself 'starved and tortured'. That many men think and behave in a way that gestures to (and often explicitly references) this entitlement to women and their bodies and affections is a problem. That he states it quite clearly, but it is waved away as his being 'a madman' or 'a narcissist', that others (of varying degrees of nastiness) have seriously lamented that he couldn't just have a date set up or go to a sex worker or even 'this is what happens when you reject Nice Guys, women, so be careful', gives me the impression its not something society wants to face up to.

People don't go shooting a bunch of people just because they want something they can't get. They do it because they have a very bruised ego and are emotionally out of control. He is a guy that based his entire self-worth on his ability to get women to desire him. Where does that idea come from?


Other men.


Very sexist comment.


Not at all. By and large women don't look at a man and rank him in some hierarchy according to how many women he's slept with or might be able to sleep with. Women want to know if a man is nice, sane, solvent; if we're looking at hierarchy, it's to do with career status (and implicit ability and accomplishments, not just the title itself), not women bedded. The bedpost-notch method of accounting, the question of whether a guy's a "stud", is something that generally comes up in men's conversation, not women's.

You'd do well to do some reading on how patriarchal, sexist attitudes held by men hurt other men, not just women.


What I desire is to live an authentic life meaning live to what is natural to me. I want to bring in enough money to help others and expand my thinking. I have zero desire to play this phony, extraverted salesperson game.



tarantella64
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25 May 2014, 10:38 am

@SoftwareEngineer: You're adding the venom yourself; it's not there when I post. But I do think you have significant problems with hearing anything that suggests men are making things very difficult for other men.

Ask around here: ask men where they get the idea that men who don't get laid are inferior. I bet many will say that they feel women are judging them on their sexual experience -- but have they actually asked? I can tell you, after a lifetime of hanging with women, that this is not something we're usually thinking about when we meet a man (just like we're not obsessed with men's height the way that so many men seem to be). So where does the idea come from? Movies? Well, who writes the movies and directs them? Men, usually. It's a male narrative.

We're really not sitting there sizing you up and sorting you by "will know how to pleasure me to screaming orgasm" v. "can't get laid". For one thing...and, y'know, this is something else I doubt you'll want to hear...most men just aren't that earthshattering in the sack, in my long and happy experience and my friends' experiences, and it's not something we expect or even go that far out of our way for. There's more to life than that, and more to the sack than that. Yeah, there are women who spend some span of years as sexual adventuresses and it's all about the nerve endings for them, for that time, but for most of us? Mm, no.

The idea that this is what women are after, and how women choose and value men, is a PUA fantasy. Not a very nice one, either.



Last edited by tarantella64 on 25 May 2014, 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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25 May 2014, 10:42 am

Simply more sexism. You are leveraging a horrible event committed by one individual to bash men in general.



marshall
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25 May 2014, 10:42 am

Hopper wrote:
And it wasn't that he wanted something he couldn't get. It was that (in his mind) he was entitled to something he didn't have. It's felt not so much as an unfulfilled desire, but a loss of something you could swear you once had; something wasn't kept from you so much as taken from you.

Someone like that will come up with any rationalization. The rationalization is the most offensive part to you, but I don't think feeling entitled alone causes someone to murder. He had a bruised ego and was painting himself the victim. His ego was the biggest problem, not his feeling entitled to sex.



tarantella64
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25 May 2014, 10:50 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Simply more sexism. You are leveraging a horrible event committed by one individual to bash men in general.


And once again, you're reading "men aren't being very nice to other men, and this causes real problems for both men and women" as male-bashing. I notice you've sidestepped the entire question of where the "get laid or you suck" narrative comes from.

I've edited because I think I was too broad, and not thoughtful enough, about everything from the edited point down. But I'd point you towards an entire field that does study these things thoughtfully: it's called, appropriately enough, Men's Studies. And the phenomenon of men pressuring men to fit particular molds is well-documented and well-discussed there, as are the effects of these things on both men and women. Of course, you're entitled to ignore that and pretend that people don't think about and study these things, also to ignore that they do so because they're aware that the pressures on men create serious problems.



Last edited by tarantella64 on 25 May 2014, 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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25 May 2014, 10:51 am

For what its worth, look at pop culture today. The beer commercials associate good times with pretty women. The TV shows, teen movies, show the happy guys with hot girls, and the guys without them miserable. College today is associated with parties, girls, etc. Look into "sexual determinism," and perhaps a good reason men chase money, prestige, honour, etc. is to attract more women, or why they drive sports/expensive cars.

This guy was going to a two year school at age 22. Something was VERY wrong. He should've been a senior at a 4 year school, especially cuz his dad easily could have afforded it. Its hard to get girls or meet them at a two year school. Also, as a CC student, did he really expect to get with sorority chicks, who, like many other 4 yr college students, woulda looked at him and said "he must be REALLY dumb" if he's that age and couldn't go to a 4 yr college straight out of high school. Its obvious: his therapist failed him. MISERABLY.



Last edited by Rodney00 on 25 May 2014, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.