Sexism on L&D

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I wasn't trying to attack her, I was just simply stating it doesn't matter what reason the one woman had for posting what she did.

Yeah, you're right Commanderkleen. If we are not to tolerate sexism it must go both ways, comments by both men and women should not be sexist. I think the main motivation behind my comment was the shock I feel after reading recent news from India and I wasn't trying to excuse the comment, but express my shock at what I've read recently in the newspaper, which is off topic, I know.

That's okay. This was just a common case of misunderstanding on my part.

Wait?so it's only ok to be a sexist if you're female?

My $.02 on the whole thing is, 1st and foremost, and beyond any/all obvious differences between men and women, that men and women in a free society are equal persons, neither better nor more deserving than the other.

Having said that, there are issues that seem to be unique to both, with things like sexual assault and marginalization in the workplace (as two examples) seeming to be unique to women.

Something that seems unique to men, and not just aspie men, is this whole idea (and I know for a fact this happens) that after women spell out what they're looking for in a man, and certain men do their best to fit that image, men are often rejected in favor of the exact opposite. And it is often true that some women DO complain about a never-ending cycle of very bad relationships and the difficulties of finding a "good man."

I will concede that Nice Guys® often are under the false assumption that being a Nice Guy® is a free pass for positive dating relationships and casual sex, and the complaints a lot of guys give stem from a sense of entitlement to free access to a female body for sexual purposes.

I will also grant that any person at any time for any reason can establish whatever criteria they want for a potential mate and that it's nobody's business but their own what those criteria are.

But if we're being honest here, we also have to admit that as men with AS, we are at a distinct disadvantage because of the difficulties we have that are unique to us. For us, rejection is not simply rejection--it is outright mistreatment. It's mistreatment because we're being pushed into what appears to us as a zero-sum game with ill-defined rules that are constantly changing. Just when we think we understand what to do, we get the rug pulled out from under us, whether by a so-called PUA or by women who by their behavior do SEEM to prefer abusive relationships to sane ones.

It's frustrating for us because there does seem to be a secret code to it, as though there are cheats, tricks, and shortcuts to winning. And for those of us to eventually do figure out that it's really an illusion, we also have to clear the hurdles of self-confidence and social skills to even approach women. And EVEN IF as a man you can gain self-confidence and at leas the ability to fake social skills, you STILL cannot get around fickle women, rejection, and the fact "she's just not that into you." As a man, you won't understand it until you've dated (in a casual sense, coffee/beer/bowling/etc.) SEVERAL women and you've reached the point you're actually turning women down, or you happen to be the first in a relationship to see that the negatives outweigh the positives or the relationship is just not going anywhere anymore and YOU'RE the one breaking up.

UNTIL you get there as a man, it really does feel like manipulative head-games, as though you've changed everything about yourself to mold yourself into what any woman would ideally want and what EVERY woman deserves, and it's NEVER good enough. It's humiliating.

So no, I don't blame men, especially AS men, for complaining about women behaving badly.

I don't blame men for wanting an outlet to vent and/or ask for advice.

I don't believe that is misogynistic sexism.

And it honestly offends me that someone's idea of helping is essentially to tell men, "oh shut up, your feelings don't count, anyway. You're just a MAN."

Venting about how one is mistreated by the opposite sex, even if the opposite sex happens to be female, is NOT sexism. Painting the opposite sex as somehow inferior, however, IS. If the issue is that WP are putting women down as inferior when the REAL trouble is a guy can't get a date, he needs someone to help him understand that he should voice the REAL issue (can't get a date) rather than sexist language (all women are just stupid). If we're dealing with an undeserved sense of entitlement, let's deal with that.

But if it's an issue of actually being mistreated by the opposite sex, then let's call it that, too. If we're going to shut down all supposed "sexist" language, then we have to stop women from discussing issues such as rape and sexual harassment in the workplace. Why? Because discussing rape and harassment singles out men and makes men out to be bad guys. I've never sexually assaulted a woman, and I never "harassed" a woman unless the supposed "harassment" was clearly and blatantly invited by someone with demonstrably impure intentions. So?yeah, discussions about so-called "rape-culture" genuinely does offend me as a man because I have no part in that sort of thing and I look down on people who do.

On that note, I've always been of the opinion that I/we have the right to be offended. But being offended by no means justifies extinguishing dissenting views. I'd rather just go about my day being offended and at least still be able to express views others might find offensive. If you disagree with someone, you should feel free to express exactly what the disagreement is and why you feel that way. I've felt offended by some things some men on here have said in relation to their dealings with women, but I can't say I entirely don't know where they're coming from or how the feel. I understand both sides of the issue, and I'm not sure I think either side should be silenced.

@starvingartist: I truly hope that we can mutually respectfully disagree here. I don't hate women, I don't support misogyny, and I'm certainly liable to take your side more often than not. I truly mean that. My issue is that there is room for both sides here, and I'm afraid a wholesale ban on anything remotely hinting of sexism in the way some use the term might be going too far. If I asked you to stop discussing patriarchal mistreatment of women in ANY context could you in good conscience do that? From what I've seen on here, AS men look at WP as a way to express emotions they otherwise cannot and get some sort of validation or advice they can't get IRL. Granted, there is a right way and a wrong way to do that, and perhaps what would be best is not to silence men but rather help us understand the appropriate boundaries to giving voice to our concerns such that voicing our experiences does not come in direct harm to you and others who feel the way you do or who have had the same or similar experiences you have had. Instead of anyone silencing anyone else completely, I think what might be best is to approach more appropriate ways of saying what we, male and female, have to say.

One thing I think is good, which is talking about sexism. I am not a fan of keeping things under wraps. I think no progress is made then and stuff just simmers below the surface. But it has to be kept civil and free from personal attack. Winning arguments at the expense of driving away less outspoken people is not a good exchange for the forum.

Angel Rho, you have said a lot that others can ask you about, or simply comment on.

It is, but people's emotions do get the better of them, not to mention the thinking traps a lot of people have to overcome. Most peer groups really don't want to see a version of you that's isn't politically correct and emotionally grounded, so to have a place to air your thoughts without jeopardizing your social or work life is better than another place where you have to second guess everything you say.