Creepiness

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He wouldn't get away with it where I work. Rank is no excuse. We have procedures outlined for dealing with managers like that.

I don't think guys learn this. They are born that way, more or less. The proof of that is that I've never done anything like that to a girl (and I think many other NDs haven't either), and I was brought up in the same culture as the guys that did and still do. Actually, having a daughter aged 22, I'm shocked how much sh*t she gets online, and on sites that are not supposed to be used for dating like Facebook and friend forums. I had no idea some guys could be such jerks. I thought it was just bad stories, but it's apparently what goes on.

Exactly, like I said, he still hasn't got the message . I know something needs to be done about it, it's just finding the energy and confidence to do it, and I don't have much energy/confidence socially at the best of times!

I think it's a mixture of learned and inherent. And I don't think the fact you and many others haven't done anything like that negates the idea that it is generally taught behaviour. There are loads of things that are learned socially that many people do do, and many others do not; for example, girls are generally taught to want romantic love. I have consumed much of the culture promoting this (I'm wearing little mermaid pyjamas as I type this), but I'm still not a romantic person. This doesn't mean that generally my peers weren't taught this behaviour. However, it is also inherent because looking for love is what keeps the species going. So I wasn't saying it was either/or, I think some guys are born with it (like you say) and then have it reinforced.

I don't think 'born that way' covers it. As racheypie666 noted, that many men don't behave like this, and that (I'd wager) it's much more common amongst younger men than older ones, suggests many factors play a part.

If we see it (and other behavioural phenomena) as a complex though (all too) common outcome of a mix/interplay of inherited traits and cultural trends and social pressures as they meet in the individual, we'd be closer to an understanding. Tabula rasa is a folly, as is pin-the-cause-on-the-inheritable-trait. An either/or of nature v nurture is a false dichotomy if ever there was one. Both are at interplay with one another, and neither in itself is an uncomplicated, singular, non-contradictory force.

Having grown up in a female-heavy family, I've heard too many sh***y stories like yours. My sympathies. Is there no-one above the manager you could take the matter to?

(I don't just mean as in someone with seniority over him, but someone who'd take your concerns seriously?)


Aww shucks! Yeah, life's easier when you get to write the script. I've never been that great at improv.

When you ask a girl out, it is between you and her - two individuals. What does it matter what popular culture or TV shows say? If these types of TV shows or certain views mean anything to the girl you want to ask out, then expect her to say no to you. Wouldn't you want to ask out an independent thinker? Someone that isn't led by the nose by what's out in the media? Ask out a woman who has her own mind and don't be afraid to be rejected by a woman who doesn't have her own mind.

I do like independent women, but I'm not the type that asks them out, or does similar 'creepy' things. She needs to like game playing as well as being independent and smart (well, smart and independent women probably are more creative in their game playing, so I guess they relate).

Not necesarily. Being a player and doing catcalling and alike is related to youth. Not many guys in their 30s and older are into this, and I don't think that is culture either, rather it is an inborn preference to do this in the teens and 20s.



Certainly, but just giving up on the complexities leads nowhere.

Yes, most things are a mixture of learned and inherited.



Well, when it relates to neurodiversity there should be a suspicion that it must have an inherited component, because NDs and NTs have largely the same cultural programming, and when the outcomes differ consistently, there must be something more than culture to it.



I'm a guy and a hopeless romantic.

I could either identify as GID, or attribute it to being neurodiverse, and I prefer the latter.

Yes, I think this is true (honestly I'm not convinced of the value of my earlier comment having re-read it, I shouldn't have posted when I was tired lol ). It is very likely that an autistic person's wiring might make an alternative conclusion from the same cultural stimulus. For example, when I was younger and would go to sleepovers with school friends, I would lose a tiny bit of respect for them with every romantic comedy we watched (Shaun of the Dead not withstanding); whilst it was pretty clear it was a rite of passage for teenage girls to watch that nonsense together, I just didn't get it.



I don't think you need to attribute it to anything! You just be as sensitive as you like lol, gender roles be damned .

Yeah. Just ask a girl out isn't the way it works. It was this attitude that I was commenting on in my opening post.

After all, I'm not a hopeless romantic, I'm a hopeful romantic  

...Eerie...a vamp-a-rella ????????? Check the spirit - just don't get into blazing combat , or you'll yell HELP ! !! !! !! !! !!

I'm probably just misunderstanding what you mean here, but a woman who has her own mind can still reject you. I'm an independent thinker and I've rejected guys based on those independent thoughts, hence:



It's always going to be tricky if things don't go to plan. If she likes you, and isn't creeped out, and says yes, then cool. But if she says no, or she is creeped out, if she offers friendship or if idiots even mock you for being rejected, it's obviously going to be an unpleasant experience, often both for the asker and the askee. I totally agree that men shouldn't be made to feel like failures/losers for not asking a girl out; it must be bloody daunting. Especially because, if she says no, you might be made to feel like a failure/loser again. Telling you to ignore crappy attitudes like that won't help, but you guys totally should; asking someone out is brave, taking rejection is sh***y, and people (especially other guys) should have empathy for that.



That's interesting, do you think asking a girl out is always 'creepy'. And do you play those games as a replacement for directly asking the woman; would your shared involvement in 'game-playing' replace the conventional asking out? I'm genuinely interested; I always prefer the latter method to the former, because it kind of gives you a better indication of how you feel about each other. That said, it always gets me into awkward situations because I generally don't want to go beyond flirtation, and the guy obviously does.



Ha, that's a good way of putting it

I wouldn't mind if she said no or if she offered genuine friendship but if she gets creeped out and/or idiots mock me, then yeah, it's going to be an unpleasant experience.Yes it is. The worst part of it is the oxymoronic nature of this part of the male gender role. Catch-22 scenio. If don't ask her out guys will say I'm a coward but if I do ask her out (and she's not into me) other guys will come to her aid and say "why are you talking to talking to her you creep! These might be the same guys who would have called me a coward if I didn't ask her out.

This seems so illogical to me!

Honestly, I think people should never be insulted for things that are not in their control. Other people's choices are not in my control, therefor I shouldn't be insulted for their choices.Rejection is something I can deal with. But I don't like it when the girl or a third party says I'm a creep. It's scary. Like she's going to get going to get the bouncer onto you or one her male friends will aid her (using his fist). They make it sound like the asker did something immoral when he didn't. And they make it sound like the asker should never ask girls out because they view it as immoral. But it's not immoral. Asking girls out is a normal part of life.

I know there a some people out there who want to shame me for not conforming to their narrow minded gender roles but I will not give up on dating.

My sympathies, that does sound like a very scary situation. There are many facets to being an outsider,but one of the worst has to be when people become aggressive towards you as a reaction. Especially since you weren't being creepy intentionally (and possibly weren't being creepy at all). As we've said, sometimes the creepiness is an issue of perception on the woman's end, unrelated to your behaviour. However with ASD it can also be hard to know whether you are doing something whilst asking her out that makes you come across like a creep. People very often respond to me as though I am weird, when from my perspective I've had a pretty successful social interaction. Maybe ask a friend to give you pointers on any behaviours you might be doing unconsciously, i.e. body language?



Hell yes. The way I see it, everyone is the centre of their own world*, so you just focus on how you want to express yourself and find a person who appreciates you for who you are.

*not a license to be selfish, I just think logically we are all self-centred