Are women blind, or super-vigilant, or both?

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This is actually good advice. I went through an "angry young man" phase losing my temper at the drop of a hat. Having said that I recall when I was a skinny muscly 20 something who got into fights and was drunk I attracted a lot of girls attention for some weird reason. NTs are irrational at that age. Alas I never used my powers and just let these girls friendzone me.

Its interesting why your anger helped you in your case yet it stands in my way in my case. Even though I am 40, that girl in Example 2 is 27. Anyway, I have few theories, please let me know if it is one of those or something else:

a) If a girl is attracted to a guy, then anger can further enhance that attraction. But if a girl is not attracted to a guy then anger will make her like him even less

b) Same as "a" except that anger does not "make her like me even less"; rather it gives her a convenient excuse to end it whereas otherwise she would have to wait for some other excuse

c) Your anger was directed at the other people rather than the girl in question, while my anger is directed at the girl. Basically, a girl likes being a spectator of anger, but not its target.

d) In your case it was a fist fight while in my case it is a verbal fight

e) In your case you presented yourself as "tough" while in my case I presented myself as a victim

f) Even though the girl in Example 2 is 27, fact remains that I am 40. So anger looks good on a 20-something guy, but it doesn't look good on a 40 year old.

g) Something else

Please let me know what you think

Yes I suppose once again context is key here. I was a sexually frustrated 25 yr old, I knew I was attractive to girls but I went through a phase where I couldn't understand why they ignored me (I was a little self-entitled expecting them to come to me). I compensated for my ignorance by drinking heavily and acting boisterous in public or at parties where girls were present. But here's the thing, my anger wasn't directed at females, I was angry at everything else. Kind of like a James Dean "rebel without a cause". Girls seem to like playing "Florence Nightingale" and suddenly started talking to me in droves. I was a little overwhelmed but I miscalculated as I thought they wanted me physically and I waited. Nothing happened other than "talking", When I tried to make a move they made it clear I they wanted me as a friend. My mistake was to let this drag for something like 10 yrs until eventually I started making moves on dates and I eventually got married.

But! I never got aggressive at a girl. I don't think that works QFT...they just stop talking to you.


Its also intimidating, if the girl has choices then she's going to cross you off her list


Yes that's correct.


Well a mix of everything but mostly my loud mouth. It was anything I was proud off and I found my self waking up in weird places I couldn't remember where I had been and often walked home as I left my car at somebodies house.


Yes that's true, but again I am not trying to promote what I did, its just for illustrative purposes only. The critical take home message is that I was being "assertive" and girls like that. You can be assertive without being anti-social. Yes victimhood is never going to get positive female appraisal. It just means you are seen as "weak" which means she won't want your kids.



Yep...its not so much the age but its the expectation that at 40 you are seen as mature. I might have told you before QFT but for a 20 something she might see you as a 40 year old mentor rather than as a sexual partner. You need to translate opportunity into convincing this girl you are more than a walking encyclopaedia or somebody who can help her write a dissertation or article. I know what you are doing, in the process of being helpful you are hoping she will be dependent on you and reward your efforts. If that's your angle then you need to be a little more assertive and persuasive without being aggressive or angry at her that you discuss work over dinner and then take it from there.

That reminds me of what happened to me 3 years ago. So it was probably like 10 PM or something, it was dark, and I was walking down the street. Some older lady (probably around 60 or so) -- who looked homeless herself -- asked me if I was okay. I asked her why does she think I wasn't. She said she thought I was homeless or something. That was exactly what I was suspecting she thought (my hair is messy and there were a few occasions when people thought I was homeless). So I started cussing her off. Then she said "keep away from me", but then I started going after her and saying "okay sorry I yelled at you I can be calm, tell me why I look homeless". But she just kept repeating "keep away from me". So then I decided I better walk off or else she would call a police (no she didn't mention a police I just thought that). So I walked off. But then few minutes later I felt bad about the whole thing so I decided to come back. When I came back to that location that lady was not there.

But that location is right next to Applebees. So I walked inside the Applebees and asked someone at the front (I don't remember if it was male or female) whether they saw any shouting outside. They said they haven't. So I described to them what happened. They said its okay and didn't seem to care one way or the other. They then asked me whether I came there to eat or just to rant. I said yeah I want to eat. So they shown me a table. Then I asked the waitress at the table whether I look like I am homeless. She said I don't. So then I described to her what happened. She said she is sorry it happened and just assured me I don't look like homeless. But -- unlike the person at the front -- she seemed very supportive about it, trying to assure me that I am a good person. Then I described another incident -- where the driver didn't let me on grayhound -- because he too thought I was homeless. And that other incident also involved my anger. Basically the bus driver didn't turn me down right away -- he asked his female collegue whether to let me on and she actually was saying she saw no reason not to -- but then I screamed "arghhh" (basically meaning "you think I am crazy, fine, let me act crazy") which made them both to decide not to let me on -- and I described this whole thing to the waitress at the Applebees. She once again said she felt bad it happened to me and was trying to say things to make me feel better.

In any case, few days later I came to Applebees again -- mainly because I was hoping to run onto her -- and I did. So she asked me how I have been and she was holding my hand at some point. So then -- after that second visit -- I went to Social Anxiety forum and asked for advice on whether I should pursue her. I remember there were at least three people who thought I should pursue her and only one person who thought I shouldn't. So then I asked my counselor about it. But he agreed with that one person who didn't think I should pursue her. Basically, he asked me the following question: when she was holding my hand, was she simply holding it, or was she also rubbing it? I said she was simply holding it. He said that in this case it might not be romantic interest but rather her motherly instinct to take care of someone who is distressed. But in any case, I felt like the number of people that wanted me to pursue her was greater than the number of people that didn't. So after several days of contemplation, I asked her for a number. However, *before* I asked her for a number I was basically coming there every day, studying there all day long (its my habbit to study at the restaurants, I was just picking Applebees as a restaurant to study) and only maybe on my 5-th visit I asked her for a number. She said that I should give her my number instead. I gave mine, and she never called me -- although she still talked to me a few times she saw me there (maybe 2 or 3 more times).

Does my experience look similar to the kind you had? You said girls were all over you when you were angry at some third party but then it didn't go anywhere since you didn't act soon enough? Or was it different in your case -- as in they were more "obviously" into you? After all, my counselor didn't agree she was into me when I was describing to him the way she held my hand.

@ QFT I can see elements of your story that overlap with mine. Specifically the girl was behaving in a "Florence Nightingale" manner in wanting to be helpful. But there are some distinctions

- Firstly she is an employee in Aplebees. That changes everything, I might have posted before that I always find attractive NT girls who work in the service industry whom I see on a regular basis get on a first name basis with me. I used to think it was because they were trying to build customer loyalty by batting their pretty eyelids (that's part of it) but their position in service means they can safely engage with men and get to socialise and learn in a safe environment where there is no danger of giving signals for the man to hit on her. It also might be in their personality that they want to engage with us since we a re customers and enjoy an opportunity to talk.

The girls who were drawn to me were in parties or in public as I hung around with a social group.

- Second the girl didn't see you be aggressive, you told her.

- third you claim to look dishevelled and homeless, in my heyday as a 20 something guy I wore clean suites and was physically in shape, I was drunk and did have a drinking problem which was both my achilles heel and (for the reasons I mentioned) a magnet for girls. So it was being inebriated that somehow attracted girls (many of whom I kissed and they sometimes reciprocated but their "cockblocking" friends would invariably seperate us. Of course looking back I regret what I did.

Use my story as a cautionary guide not a template.