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Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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Bimin
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21 Mar 2011, 9:26 am

Lilya wrote:
From a female point of view, I see it as very unnecessary to worry about being "too nice" with the ladies. Especially for younger girls/women who are seeking experiences, certain types of men (the "naughty" ones) equal to "fun" and "adventure", but those are generally speaking very different type to what an average girl wants a steady relationship with, and especially marriage. It is a strong myth, that I very heavily judge, that women would fall for abusive men. Please do not be naive enough to think women wouldn't distinguish love and sex; women too, have one-night-stands and acquaintances better know as **** buddies. It doesn't show admiration, but lack of respect, to accept somebody to please one's short-term pursuing of excitement.

Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"? Generally speaking there's a large distinction between a short-term fantasy and life-long commitment. Surely you've heard the saying about having fun with blondes and marrying brunettes. Women tend to have just as much or even more pressure trying to understand what from the male point of view actually are desirable qualities in a woman and what aren't.

My experience-based summary is that generally speaking, women appreciate in a long-term partner one's traditional "nice guy" features, such as trustworthiness, loyalty and caring (brains don't harm either). Wait another ten years and you will be a target, not the "bad boys".



Maybe things are a bit different in Finland. . . .

You are right, it should be unnecessary to worry about being too nice. Women do distinguish love and sex in my experience, the men that you say are shown "a lack of respect" by being chosen as f**K buddies are generally all one prototype of the washboard abs, tall, chizled facial features, great personalities, these guys are sought after by many to all women, from professional women to college women, tall and short. . . When women get hurt by these men, they blame the entire gender of men collectively. To tell you the truth I wouldn't mind being chosen for sexual adventures by women, I would learn to deal with the "disrespect" as you say.

When women look for a life time partner, they look for a partner with economic stability or abundance, fathering skills, great looks, and personality take a back seat but they are still very important.

So your suggestion is to wait another 10 years..... While the 1 prototype of men get to enjoy the company of women.... Unfortunately this is the case for some American men in my experience, I was able to escape the fate of loneliness in a barren land by my entrepreneurial spirit and moving to a different country for a few years, then the recession killed me, now after nine months of being back here, still not even a date.

In the military there is



Lilya
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21 Mar 2011, 6:58 pm

Bimin wrote:
Lilya wrote:
From a female point of view, I see it as very unnecessary to worry about being "too nice" with the ladies. Especially for younger girls/women who are seeking experiences, certain types of men (the "naughty" ones) equal to "fun" and "adventure", but those are generally speaking very different type to what an average girl wants a steady relationship with, and especially marriage. It is a strong myth, that I very heavily judge, that women would fall for abusive men. Please do not be naive enough to think women wouldn't distinguish love and sex; women too, have one-night-stands and acquaintances better know as **** buddies. It doesn't show admiration, but lack of respect, to accept somebody to please one's short-term pursuing of excitement.

Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"? Generally speaking there's a large distinction between a short-term fantasy and life-long commitment. Surely you've heard the saying about having fun with blondes and marrying brunettes. Women tend to have just as much or even more pressure trying to understand what from the male point of view actually are desirable qualities in a woman and what aren't.

My experience-based summary is that generally speaking, women appreciate in a long-term partner one's traditional "nice guy" features, such as trustworthiness, loyalty and caring (brains don't harm either). Wait another ten years and you will be a target, not the "bad boys".



Maybe things are a bit different in Finland. . . .

You are right, it should be unnecessary to worry about being too nice. Women do distinguish love and sex in my experience, the men that you say are shown "a lack of respect" by being chosen as f**K buddies are generally all one prototype of the washboard abs, tall, chizled facial features, great personalities, these guys are sought after by many to all women, from professional women to college women, tall and short. . . When women get hurt by these men, they blame the entire gender of men collectively. To tell you the truth I wouldn't mind being chosen for sexual adventures by women, I would learn to deal with the "disrespect" as you say.

When women look for a life time partner, they look for a partner with economic stability or abundance, fathering skills, great looks, and personality take a back seat but they are still very important.

So your suggestion is to wait another 10 years..... While the 1 prototype of men get to enjoy the company of women.... Unfortunately this is the case for some American men in my experience, I was able to escape the fate of loneliness in a barren land by my entrepreneurial spirit and moving to a different country for a few years, then the recession killed me, now after nine months of being back here, still not even a date.

In the military there is


Well, I can admit I am from a very liberal country... :) I'd better not start telling all the sins I've committed in my young lifetime.. In Finland, generally speaking there aren't any rules about what is appropriate behaviour for either sex. Women over here tend to be extremely independent and strong-minded and know what they want. (Female president of 11 years, female prime minister as well as 60% of all ministers probably tells something). Most women live very ambitious and free lifestyles and many stay single by choice for a long time, I believe the percentage is highest in Europe at the moment. Perhaps I have learned to approach certain things differently than an average American woman.

Do bare in mind... The prototype 1 men do get booted eventually, usually asap when something better shows up, the "nice guy" stays. Secondly, in the end, we all are individuals. I don't know you personally or your traits, but every woman has different needs. I know girls at 21 who already have very serious relationships. Considering that you obviously have wits and based on the photo, looks as well, I'd be very surprised, if no girl would say "yes" to going out with you for the next 10 years.

If you want practical advice from female point of view on how to approach a girl there are few quite universal hints that tend to work:

1) Dress up smart
2) Be a good listener (be interested in her, ask questions when appropriate and LISTEN the answers)
3) Don't be too pushy, be "cool" and give her space (Being too "eager" is one of the biggest and worst mistakes many men do)
4) Be interesting. Pique her curiosity slowly enough and tell about your past years like you just told. Do it right and she'll see a lot of good traits in you.

If it's learning to deal with "disrespect" or women in general you seek, the best bet is generally speaking to take a risk and practise. Something the most popular prototype 1 men already know is that all the women are different and require different approach; You don't make yourself much liked among the ladies, if you try to stereotype too much. Try to recognize the lady's needs and you will learn how to impress her. Things like economic stability do matter in the long run, but don't underestimate the importance of personality and how you treat the person. These would be my advice.

And for the record: NEVER HURT THE GIRL. One solid rule that goes especially for the short-term adventures is that the rules need to be clear for the both.

Feel free to give it a try and see what happens. I chase the girls as well and have done well so far ;) (Speaking from experience: it's MUCH more challenging than bedding a male..)



Bimin
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22 Mar 2011, 12:19 am

I would argue that America is way more liberal than Europe as a whole, I do not know much about Finland but I would say that on a percentage basis America is way more liberal especially for women. Consider this high rate of divorce, only 50% of women ages 15-40 have children, all over our media there are instances of women cheating, extramarital affairs, women who randomly hook up with guys, on television worse, bad girls club, kim kardashian, paris Hilton, …..etc etc. Women are as free as the wind in America. I am a women’s studies minor who participated in high level collegiate classes such as “feminist theory”, “women in western religion” , “women in athletics”.

In high school, there would be girls who slept with whomever they wanted, college, my entire life I have seen women like this, there are also women who choose a different path, some long term commitment. But irrespective of “women’s right’s” for the right set of conditions (ie $, fame, looks, personality, intelligence) some women would settle down.

Also lifestyle should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by ones personality, innate tendencies, behaviors, yet social norms, the media have impressed so much upon the younger generations and people of dating age through gorilla capitalism.

I would have to disagree with you that the prototype 1 men get booted, they don’t they do the booting, and they have the choice to continue life as a successful bachelor until old age or the can choose to commit.

I have had four serious relationships in my life, the first was in high school for a year, a second in college for a year, third and fourth in Colombia, one was 4 months the other was 6 months. I appreciate you comment and compliment, I do have wits but if a girl doesn’t give me the time of day , how will she now? I have looks but they aren’t good enough to not stay lonely.

Considering my dating history and statistics (population, gender ratio, and lifestyle) in America, I feel that is highly improbable that I will meet someone of merit, let alone experience human touch in the near future.

I appreciate your list of hints I will try to bring them to the forefront of my mind yet I feel like they have already been there...... ; I consider myself a good dresser and feel this entirely subjective upon women, different cloths, and different women. I try and look good; I enjoy diesel jeans, nice sneakers, nice shirt. Try and stay comfortable and stylish. I look great in a suit.

I am almost always and always have been a great listener in my relationships. In fact 3/4 of my ex girlfriend have nothing bad to say about me, in fact they all say great things about me, the fourth got married and I don't keep in touch with.

I don’t believe in the “eager” thing, but in the beginning you are right, in my past relationships, they have all started and moved very fast, IE talked on facebook for a day , lunch date on a Friday, talked for 4 hours, took a walk in the park on a sunny day, she left for a meeting, called me a few hours later, came over watched a dvd, waited until 12:01 to make love, she stayed for the entire weekend and then she moved in two weeks later, we were together for a year.

“space” is just a word for “another guy” “uncertainty” “lack of feelings”……. And in America, “space” is considered the norm, it’s ok for girls night out and kiss another guy for some women.

I try to be as interesting as I can but I don’t want to be fake so… If I run out of ideas… I kind of tell her.

I try not to talk about my past until she wants to know because it is deep , sad . . . .

I have never hurt the girl.

Bisexuality is statistically higher in women than men, many women in America want to , or have experienced sexual relations with a female partner, so again I can not agree with you there.



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23 Mar 2011, 4:00 am

Quote:
Well how can I quantify my dating history? By number of women I slept with? Number of serious relationships? I am not sure and do not know your dating history either, let’s first determine an accurate and reliable means to quantify and operationally define dating history.

If you have enough exes that you can accurately say that 3/4 of them did anything (ie, you had at least 4), then you have had more dating experience than me.

Quote:
I think you are taking this way out of context by your example with your first boyfriend. I would not insult a woman to her face and complain to her about these issues...
The boyfriend in question was not insulting me, he was insulting and belittling other people in an attempt to make himself look better to me. There's very little that's a bigger turn-off, imnsho. I don't care if it's public or private; dissing on other people without very good reason (ie, they are actively, directly harming you or your family) is a sign of weakness and almost always of poor reasoning skills and skapegoating that I find appalling. Whether it's fat people, gays, Mexicans, or whatever - don't assume that someone is as bigoted as you are just because they are not a part of the group you are dissing (that being the general 'you,' not the specific 'you, Bimin').

Quote:
The women who complain about men complain because they are all opting for the alpha male and the alpha male has more options, has had more options from birth, not just dating options but all options in life, which makes it more likely that he will be a scum bag.

Same with the model-like women.

Bimin wrote:
LKL wrote:
Bimin wrote:
in america, there are easily 10% more men than women in any given state (12% in some).

I question your data. It might be accurate in Alaska, but I strongly doubt that it is accurate anywhere else; slightly more boys than girls are born every year (nowhere near 10% more, though), but due to the higher accident rate for boys, there are generally more girls than boys alive by the time any given cohort hits puberty.

You are more that welcome to check my fact checking, my data is from the aggregation of the United States Censuses from 2000-2010, I invite you to look at the statistics. In Alaska its way more that 10%, by the time dating age comes around there are more males in every state across the nation.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ST ... 9_5YR_G00_
total men:148,535,646
total women:152,925,887
Looks like the gentlemen are in luck. Granted that the difference is mostly due to greater female survivorship, but even at birth men never outnumber women by more than half a percentage point.

Quote:
I believe not many American women want to run for office and that’s that.

I don't think that's true, but I can't find any data one way or the other.
Quote:
Every single female that I every knew in college, high school, middle school, growing up, keep in mind this is 14 different schools, 5 different states they are all employed!

And their average wage will still be lower than the average wage of men with similar levels of education and experience.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011 ... n-america/

Quote:
There are way more men unemployed than women.

See above. If an employer can pay a woman less to do the same job, why hire a man?

Quote:
Please also consider that most if not all the money men make goes to ( I would say an average of 75% nationwide ) women and families, providing.

men and women with families both spend most of their money to support their families. Single men and women spend their money to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.
http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/ink ... 993-wm.htm

Quote:
...waxed, lazered, did everything possible to remove my body hair but skin is too sensitive so I just have to let it grow, no way to grow taller unless you are younger and take HGH (but with a high risk for cancer), break your bones for three years and put pins in you, (this consequently happened to my femur by yet another accident but no growth ), become bulimic…… Then after traveling to different countries, the self hatred stopped, I relieved it’s not me, it’s American women and America.

Holy crap, I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself when I shave, for a while.


Quote:
No I don’t want me time, I wan’t US time. I couldn’t give a rats ass about guys, beer, sports, guys are fickle and competitive, beer tastes like sh it and sports are boring as hell unless your are playing them yourself.

Ok, then you need a different type of companion than usual. Different people have different needs for companionship and 'me time,' so you might 'advertise up front' that you want a partner who likes lots of contact.

Quote:
I don’t think I would agree with that statement, you have to be happy with yourself first.... at least not in my case, and how can I be happy with myself being rejected in all aspects of life? Also there are many guys not happy with themselves in relationship today.

I think that most people are happiER in a relationship, but the unfortunate vicious cycle is that if you are too unhappy alone you seem 'desperate.' I don't know the answer to that one.



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23 Mar 2011, 4:47 am

Bimin wrote:
I would argue that America is way more liberal than Europe as a whole, I do not know much about Finland but I would say that on a percentage basis America is way more liberal especially for women. Consider this high rate of divorce, only 50% of women ages 15-40 have children, all over our media there are instances of women cheating, extramarital affairs, women who randomly hook up with guys, on television worse, bad girls club, kim kardashian, paris Hilton, …..etc etc. Women are as free as the wind in America. I am a women’s studies minor who participated in high level collegiate classes such as “feminist theory”, “women in western religion” , “women in athletics”.

In high school, there would be girls who slept with whomever they wanted, college, my entire life I have seen women like this, there are also women who choose a different path, some long term commitment. But irrespective of “women’s right’s” for the right set of conditions (ie $, fame, looks, personality, intelligence) some women would settle down.

Also lifestyle should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by ones personality, innate tendencies, behaviors, yet social norms, the media have impressed so much upon the younger generations and people of dating age through gorilla capitalism.

I would have to disagree with you that the prototype 1 men get booted, they don’t they do the booting, and they have the choice to continue life as a successful bachelor until old age or the can choose to commit.

I have had four serious relationships in my life, the first was in high school for a year, a second in college for a year, third and fourth in Colombia, one was 4 months the other was 6 months. I appreciate you comment and compliment, I do have wits but if a girl doesn’t give me the time of day , how will she now? I have looks but they aren’t good enough to not stay lonely.

Considering my dating history and statistics (population, gender ratio, and lifestyle) in America, I feel that is highly improbable that I will meet someone of merit, let alone experience human touch in the near future.

I appreciate your list of hints I will try to bring them to the forefront of my mind yet I feel like they have already been there...... ; I consider myself a good dresser and feel this entirely subjective upon women, different cloths, and different women. I try and look good; I enjoy diesel jeans, nice sneakers, nice shirt. Try and stay comfortable and stylish. I look great in a suit.

I am almost always and always have been a great listener in my relationships. In fact 3/4 of my ex girlfriend have nothing bad to say about me, in fact they all say great things about me, the fourth got married and I don't keep in touch with.

I don’t believe in the “eager” thing, but in the beginning you are right, in my past relationships, they have all started and moved very fast, IE talked on facebook for a day , lunch date on a Friday, talked for 4 hours, took a walk in the park on a sunny day, she left for a meeting, called me a few hours later, came over watched a dvd, waited until 12:01 to make love, she stayed for the entire weekend and then she moved in two weeks later, we were together for a year.

“space” is just a word for “another guy” “uncertainty” “lack of feelings”……. And in America, “space” is considered the norm, it’s ok for girls night out and kiss another guy for some women.

I try to be as interesting as I can but I don’t want to be fake so… If I run out of ideas… I kind of tell her.

I try not to talk about my past until she wants to know because it is deep , sad . . . .

I have never hurt the girl.

Bisexuality is statistically higher in women than men, many women in America want to , or have experienced sexual relations with a female partner, so again I can not agree with you there.


Few essential points: NEVER refer to "... more than Europe as a whole", you are talking about a very varied bundle of different cultures. Secondly, you ought see statistics about Finland and other Northern European countries, where the standard of living is according to statistics, currently the highest in the world, as well as the level of the education (especially in Finland). Newsweek's research named Finland as the best country to live in. Never say to a Nothern European person that you seriously believe that women are doing better in the States, I guarantee that you will be laughed at. Finland and Iceland are ranked as the best countries for women. I already mentioned the portion of women in politics in Finland, I can add the portion of MPs is 50% (female ministers 60% and a female president of 11 years and (already second) female prime minister) and there are a number of women in the lead of the business and banking world (at all leading posts). Women are statistically better paid and educated in Finland than the US. I know far more many men who stay at home with children (I don't know any women, in fact) and I know a vast number of couples who have taken her last name at marriage. The free lifestyle of women in US that you mention is not awed at in Finland, it is taken for granted. I admit there are less skimpy dressed drunken women in national television over here, as that's generally speaking considered as demeaning. Women are respected in local media. Women can be very open about their sexuality with much more sophistication. (They do show US programmes as well, though, but admiration isn't the reaction) I am a young lady who has travelled to more than 25 countries by herself, that is fairly normal. A lot of women never marry, over here they marry for love, as at clear majority of the time their standard of living wouldn't increase at all on any other level. They already have the fortune, status and opportunities for sex that they can want. And over here, it's certainly the women who do the booting to the prototype 1s.

I've never done dating, it's not interesting for me. Sexual adventures are a very different matter. I have only had one relationship (for 2 years) and it's still going on.

If you know what you want and you have everything, all should be ideal for you. If there are women of appropriate age group around you, everything's probable, do try not to refer to your past dating history. I'm glad, if you appreciated my hints.

Bisexuality isn't really a matter of agreeing, it's something that just "is". Statistically there are less bisexual women than straight, so you can't say my odds to seduce a woman are better than yours.



Dave-the-Aussie
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23 Mar 2011, 6:37 am

Lilya wrote:
From a female point of view, I see it as very unnecessary to worry about being "too nice" with the ladies. Especially for younger girls/women who are seeking experiences, certain types of men (the "naughty" ones) equal to "fun" and "adventure", but those are generally speaking very different type to what an average girl wants a steady relationship with, and especially marriage. It is a strong myth, that I very heavily judge, that women would fall for abusive men. Please do not be naive enough to think women wouldn't distinguish love and sex; women too, have one-night-stands and acquaintances better know as **** buddies. It doesn't show admiration, but lack of respect, to accept somebody to please one's short-term pursuing of excitement.

Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"? Generally speaking there's a large distinction between a short-term fantasy and life-long commitment. Surely you've heard the saying about having fun with blondes and marrying brunettes. Women tend to have just as much or even more pressure trying to understand what from the male point of view actually are desirable qualities in a woman and what aren't.

My experience-based summary is that generally speaking, women appreciate in a long-term partner one's traditional "nice guy" features, such as trustworthiness, loyalty and caring (brains don't harm either). Wait another ten years and you will be a target, not the "bad boys".


From a male point of view (and with very negative experiences as a 'nice' guy) it is very easy for people who miss social cues to get sucked into being too nice, and fail to see they're never going to get a sexual relationship by that certain special girl, or even being exploited (financially or otherwise) by her, or even made into a joke while she has sex some guy who isn't nice, and not realize it when everyone else does. Think of Butters in the 'hooters girl' episode of South Park for example. That's what we mean when we talk about 'nice guys'.

Yes, having a steady job, brains, trustworthiness etc might be what she wants to make her eventual life partner into. It isn't what her body wants now, and if you can't be that, rest assured she won't be a life partner either.

Yes, men (well I am) driven strongly by sex drive, and it's our second most powerful urge after taking care of our immediate survival needs (food, water, shelter etc). (Hey, at least I'm not lying here) A girl who is willing to take care of that demonstrates she is interested, whereas playing down the significance of a sexual relationship indicates she isn't interested in the man as a partner. As the old saying goes "whoever said the way to a man's heart is through his stomach was aiming too high"

One rule I now have if at bars or clubs or things like that is to never buy a girl a drink unless she's demonstrated she's willing to do the same (or similar, e.g snack or cover charge) to you. I've actually observed a girl at a club scoring about 7 free drinks flirting with different guys and then moving onto someone else, and then getting a free taxi ride home. A good lesson in life is not to fall for it.



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23 Mar 2011, 7:51 am

Dave-the-Aussie wrote:
Lilya wrote:
From a female point of view, I see it as very unnecessary to worry about being "too nice" with the ladies. Especially for younger girls/women who are seeking experiences, certain types of men (the "naughty" ones) equal to "fun" and "adventure", but those are generally speaking very different type to what an average girl wants a steady relationship with, and especially marriage. It is a strong myth, that I very heavily judge, that women would fall for abusive men. Please do not be naive enough to think women wouldn't distinguish love and sex; women too, have one-night-stands and acquaintances better know as **** buddies. It doesn't show admiration, but lack of respect, to accept somebody to please one's short-term pursuing of excitement.

Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"? Generally speaking there's a large distinction between a short-term fantasy and life-long commitment. Surely you've heard the saying about having fun with blondes and marrying brunettes. Women tend to have just as much or even more pressure trying to understand what from the male point of view actually are desirable qualities in a woman and what aren't.

My experience-based summary is that generally speaking, women appreciate in a long-term partner one's traditional "nice guy" features, such as trustworthiness, loyalty and caring (brains don't harm either). Wait another ten years and you will be a target, not the "bad boys".


From a male point of view (and with very negative experiences as a 'nice' guy) it is very easy for people who miss social cues to get sucked into being too nice, and fail to see they're never going to get a sexual relationship by that certain special girl, or even being exploited (financially or otherwise) by her, or even made into a joke while she has sex some guy who isn't nice, and not realize it when everyone else does. Think of Butters in the 'hooters girl' episode of South Park for example. That's what we mean when we talk about 'nice guys'.

Yes, having a steady job, brains, trustworthiness etc might be what she wants to make her eventual life partner into. It isn't what her body wants now, and if you can't be that, rest assured she won't be a life partner either.

Yes, men (well I am) driven strongly by sex drive, and it's our second most powerful urge after taking care of our immediate survival needs (food, water, shelter etc). (Hey, at least I'm not lying here) A girl who is willing to take care of that demonstrates she is interested, whereas playing down the significance of a sexual relationship indicates she isn't interested in the man as a partner. As the old saying goes "whoever said the way to a man's heart is through his stomach was aiming too high"

One rule I now have if at bars or clubs or things like that is to never buy a girl a drink unless she's demonstrated she's willing to do the same (or similar, e.g snack or cover charge) to you. I've actually observed a girl at a club scoring about 7 free drinks flirting with different guys and then moving onto someone else, and then getting a free taxi ride home. A good lesson in life is not to fall for it.


A lot of people still don't seem to think that women as well, in reality, have very strong sex drive. A thick wallet doesn't provide good sex for any girl, what a girl wants from a one-night-stand partner is indication that he is a good lover aka has a great physique and certain type of charm. Quite frankly, one-night-stand sex is generally speaking very selfish act, a person is interested in filling one's own needs and not so much concerned about understanding the needs of the other person. If a girl is genuinely interested in a man, she most often doesn't bed him on the same night. Sex is different to making love, sex is based on physical attraction and lust and especially for a girl, plain sex often has very little to do with an idea of starting a committed relationship. In majority of the one-night-stand cases, women have the power. If she doesn't call him (unless she's after a retake), he quite certainly isn't partner material or enjoy her appreciation.

Although I'm a student, my income is slighly higher than my boyfriend's and as a result, I'm the one paying for most things when we go out. Anyhow, I see it as fair to pay 50%. However, if I was a single woman at a club and a man with obvious intentions would approach me, I would feel at least worth a drink. I believe in politeness in terms of not exploiting a man financially when one has no interest at all in him, but if men are willing to compete for a certain girl at a club, they need to stand out either by terms of looks, personality, wits or niceness, buying a drink or a rose for a girl is always a kind gesture. It's basic economic theory that you risk and either win big or lose. There isn't anything wrong with talking to a girl first (or observing your chances) and then agreeing to buy her a drink. Talking to a girl about the cost of a drink or her duty to buy you one is very likely to urge her to walk away, quite frankly, they often have better offerings on a night out. I would buy a drink for a friend, but not a stranger with dubious intentions.
Personally, there's only one time when I have "exploited" a man financially. A much older man with, quite frankly, very obnoxious personality approached me, made suggestions and bragged with his fortune. I never asked for anything, but accepted a bottle of champagne worth 1000€ and a lingerie set of several hundred euros and never even gave him a kiss :D I tend to get annoyed when someone is trying to "buy" me or my appreciation. I would think both men and women appreciate gifts given with much though and effort (expensive or not), but if you are trying to impress a girl only with your wallet, you are doing something wrong. If your personality and other assets don't appeal to her, buying things doesn't improve your chances with her.



Bimin
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23 Mar 2011, 1:40 pm

LKL wrote:
Quote:
Well how can I quantify my dating history? By number of women I slept with? Number of serious relationships? I am not sure and do not know your dating history either, let’s first determine an accurate and reliable means to quantify and operationally define dating history.

If you have enough exes that you can accurately say that 3/4 of them did anything (ie, you had at least 4), then you have had more dating experience than me.

Quote:
I think you are taking this way out of context by your example with your first boyfriend. I would not insult a woman to her face and complain to her about these issues...
The boyfriend in question was not insulting me, he was insulting and belittling other people in an attempt to make himself look better to me. There's very little that's a bigger turn-off, imnsho. I don't care if it's public or private; dissing on other people without very good reason (ie, they are actively, directly harming you or your family) is a sign of weakness and almost always of poor reasoning skills and skapegoating that I find appalling. Whether it's fat people, gays, Mexicans, or whatever - don't assume that someone is as bigoted as you are just because they are not a part of the group you are dissing (that being the general 'you,' not the specific 'you, Bimin').

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The women who complain about men complain because they are all opting for the alpha male and the alpha male has more options, has had more options from birth, not just dating options but all options in life, which makes it more likely that he will be a scum bag.

Same with the model-like women.

Bimin wrote:
LKL wrote:
Bimin wrote:
in america, there are easily 10% more men than women in any given state (12% in some).

I question your data. It might be accurate in Alaska, but I strongly doubt that it is accurate anywhere else; slightly more boys than girls are born every year (nowhere near 10% more, though), but due to the higher accident rate for boys, there are generally more girls than boys alive by the time any given cohort hits puberty.

You are more that welcome to check my fact checking, my data is from the aggregation of the United States Censuses from 2000-2010, I invite you to look at the statistics. In Alaska its way more that 10%, by the time dating age comes around there are more males in every state across the nation.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ST ... 9_5YR_G00_
total men:148,535,646
total women:152,925,887
Looks like the gentlemen are in luck. Granted that the difference is mostly due to greater female survivorship, but even at birth men never outnumber women by more than half a percentage point.

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I believe not many American women want to run for office and that’s that.

I don't think that's true, but I can't find any data one way or the other.
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Every single female that I every knew in college, high school, middle school, growing up, keep in mind this is 14 different schools, 5 different states they are all employed!

And their average wage will still be lower than the average wage of men with similar levels of education and experience.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011 ... n-america/

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There are way more men unemployed than women.

See above. If an employer can pay a woman less to do the same job, why hire a man?

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Please also consider that most if not all the money men make goes to ( I would say an average of 75% nationwide ) women and families, providing.

men and women with families both spend most of their money to support their families. Single men and women spend their money to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.
http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/ink ... 993-wm.htm

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...waxed, lazered, did everything possible to remove my body hair but skin is too sensitive so I just have to let it grow, no way to grow taller unless you are younger and take HGH (but with a high risk for cancer), break your bones for three years and put pins in you, (this consequently happened to my femur by yet another accident but no growth ), become bulimic…… Then after traveling to different countries, the self hatred stopped, I relieved it’s not me, it’s American women and America.

Holy crap, I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself when I shave, for a while.


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No I don’t want me time, I wan’t US time. I couldn’t give a rats ass about guys, beer, sports, guys are fickle and competitive, beer tastes like sh it and sports are boring as hell unless your are playing them yourself.

Ok, then you need a different type of companion than usual. Different people have different needs for companionship and 'me time,' so you might 'advertise up front' that you want a partner who likes lots of contact.

Quote:
I don’t think I would agree with that statement, you have to be happy with yourself first.... at least not in my case, and how can I be happy with myself being rejected in all aspects of life? Also there are many guys not happy with themselves in relationship today.

I think that most people are happiER in a relationship, but the unfortunate vicious cycle is that if you are too unhappy alone you seem 'desperate.' I don't know the answer to that one.





I totally understand where you are coming from with you ex-boyfriend because I have had a lot of experience with bullies, people who judge, diss…. I mean just yesterday I approached a girl to ask her the time and we entered a small conversation, then I asked her to a cup of coffee sometime (even though I drink tea), she replied “too short”, I walked away, this type of prejudice occurs almost all the time… or on St. Paddies Day being referred to as Hispanic and help by an Irish tourist.” Discrimination exists but women many women discriminate more than men.


In considering the statistical data referred to on factfinder.census.gov website, over all there are more females but the abundance in female population occurs in the “outlier population values”, survivorship as you stated attributes to this as well as other factors.

If we look further into the numbers we can see that in and around youth, adolescence, young adult, adult ages that there is a difference of 4.9 percent or 14,777,615.117 million more men in America.

(Data achieved by aggregation of population values (15-19, 20-24, 25-29, 30-34, 35-39,40-44) or males and females accordingly.
15-44 men = 35.7
14-44 women = 40.6
Difference = 4.9
.049 x 301461533 = 14,771,615.117 million more males in dating ages in America).

You are right about needing a different type of woman than usual, I don’t just need contact, I need “togetherness”, Love ,compassion…. The media, women’s feminist movements, governments failure to provide for a healthy community environment, religion on the downfall and many more issues have attributed to a low blow to Love, relationships and family. Most women that I have come across are way too busy to have a relationship yet are not so busy enough not to have a hookup buddy, some women are in serious relationship most because they are enamored with some aspect of their suitor whether it be material, physical or chemical (again this perspective is derived my observing, actively partaking in my generation and generations near to me both younger and older, on the east coast, west coast, of America.)

”Seaming desperate”, “seaming needy”, “seaming …. Such and such” , this list goes on forever women can pick apart men , judge them in seconds although they may be incorrect, discrimination.

It may be a vicious cycle, loneliness and desperation. I agree with you there, these are merely excuses to mask the real bias, prejudice underlying feelings excuses, and reality.

There are some women who are too afraid to reject or admit to friends how prejudice they are so they search for any rationalization to exonerate, free their minds of guilt from the prejudice feelings. Some women who will be rude and honest, some women are free of discrimination, loving kind loyal, caring angelic like...... Unfortunately there are not many of those women today.



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23 Mar 2011, 2:37 pm

Lilya wrote:
Bimin wrote:
I would argue that America is way more liberal than Europe as a whole, I do not know much about Finland but I would say that on a percentage basis America is way more liberal especially for women. Consider this high rate of divorce, only 50% of women ages 15-40 have children, all over our media there are instances of women cheating, extramarital affairs, women who randomly hook up with guys, on television worse, bad girls club, kim kardashian, paris Hilton, …..etc etc. Women are as free as the wind in America. I am a women’s studies minor who participated in high level collegiate classes such as “feminist theory”, “women in western religion” , “women in athletics”.

In high school, there would be girls who slept with whomever they wanted, college, my entire life I have seen women like this, there are also women who choose a different path, some long term commitment. But irrespective of “women’s right’s” for the right set of conditions (ie $, fame, looks, personality, intelligence) some women would settle down.

Also lifestyle should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by ones personality, innate tendencies, behaviors, yet social norms, the media have impressed so much upon the younger generations and people of dating age through gorilla capitalism.

I would have to disagree with you that the prototype 1 men get booted, they don’t they do the booting, and they have the choice to continue life as a successful bachelor until old age or the can choose to commit.

I have had four serious relationships in my life, the first was in high school for a year, a second in college for a year, third and fourth in Colombia, one was 4 months the other was 6 months. I appreciate you comment and compliment, I do have wits but if a girl doesn’t give me the time of day , how will she now? I have looks but they aren’t good enough to not stay lonely.

Considering my dating history and statistics (population, gender ratio, and lifestyle) in America, I feel that is highly improbable that I will meet someone of merit, let alone experience human touch in the near future.

I appreciate your list of hints I will try to bring them to the forefront of my mind yet I feel like they have already been there...... ; I consider myself a good dresser and feel this entirely subjective upon women, different cloths, and different women. I try and look good; I enjoy diesel jeans, nice sneakers, nice shirt. Try and stay comfortable and stylish. I look great in a suit.

I am almost always and always have been a great listener in my relationships. In fact 3/4 of my ex girlfriend have nothing bad to say about me, in fact they all say great things about me, the fourth got married and I don't keep in touch with.

I don’t believe in the “eager” thing, but in the beginning you are right, in my past relationships, they have all started and moved very fast, IE talked on facebook for a day , lunch date on a Friday, talked for 4 hours, took a walk in the park on a sunny day, she left for a meeting, called me a few hours later, came over watched a dvd, waited until 12:01 to make love, she stayed for the entire weekend and then she moved in two weeks later, we were together for a year.

“space” is just a word for “another guy” “uncertainty” “lack of feelings”……. And in America, “space” is considered the norm, it’s ok for girls night out and kiss another guy for some women.

I try to be as interesting as I can but I don’t want to be fake so… If I run out of ideas… I kind of tell her.

I try not to talk about my past until she wants to know because it is deep , sad . . . .

I have never hurt the girl.

Bisexuality is statistically higher in women than men, many women in America want to , or have experienced sexual relations with a female partner, so again I can not agree with you there.


Few essential points: NEVER refer to "... more than Europe as a whole", you are talking about a very varied bundle of different cultures. Secondly, you ought see statistics about Finland and other Northern European countries, where the standard of living is according to statistics, currently the highest in the world, as well as the level of the education (especially in Finland). Newsweek's research named Finland as the best country to live in. Never say to a Nothern European person that you seriously believe that women are doing better in the States, I guarantee that you will be laughed at. Finland and Iceland are ranked as the best countries for women. I already mentioned the portion of women in politics in Finland, I can add the portion of MPs is 50% (female ministers 60% and a female president of 11 years and (already second) female prime minister) and there are a number of women in the lead of the business and banking world (at all leading posts). Women are statistically better paid and educated in Finland than the US. I know far more many men who stay at home with children (I don't know any women, in fact) and I know a vast number of couples who have taken her last name at marriage. The free lifestyle of women in US that you mention is not awed at in Finland, it is taken for granted. I admit there are less skimpy dressed drunken women in national television over here, as that's generally speaking considered as demeaning. Women are respected in local media. Women can be very open about their sexuality with much more sophistication. (They do show US programmes as well, though, but admiration isn't the reaction) I am a young lady who has travelled to more than 25 countries by herself, that is fairly normal. A lot of women never marry, over here they marry for love, as at clear majority of the time their standard of living wouldn't increase at all on any other level. They already have the fortune, status and opportunities for sex that they can want. And over here, it's certainly the women who do the booting to the prototype 1s.

I've never done dating, it's not interesting for me. Sexual adventures are a very different matter. I have only had one relationship (for 2 years) and it's still going on.

If you know what you want and you have everything, all should be ideal for you. If there are women of appropriate age group around you, everything's probable, do try not to refer to your past dating history. I'm glad, if you appreciated my hints.

Bisexuality isn't really a matter of agreeing, it's something that just "is". Statistically there are less bisexual women than straight, so you can't say my odds to seduce a woman are better than yours.




Lilya,

Well there are also great disparities within the USA and I feel the only way to derive a seemingly fair comparison is by talking about country to country. Also considering the population of Finland is 5,338,395 (as of 2009) and is the third most sparsely populated country in Europe.
I admire the statistics of your country and would prefer living in a country like that, being a stay at home father would sound great, just as long as I get to spend enough time with my wife.
“Topfree sunbathing is considered acceptable by many on the beaches of Finland”, things are not the same in the united states no nudity allowed , yes women are still open about their sexuality with sophistication here as well especially in powerful realms. I would aslo have to add that the free lifestyle that you talk of has been taken for granted and is being taken for granted here as well,

You have me beat, I have only traveled to 18.

I think a lot of women never marry, 51% live without a spouse in America, many in other countries as well,

Marring for love is the ultimate goal for me, but considering the probability / my experience in America, it seems like something only in the movies at this point or winning the lottery but if I did I would most likely leave America. There are women respected in media as well, IE Oprah, American Female Billionaire. Many women boot prototype 1’s here too. There are many wealthy females in America, I tend to find the wealthier they become the more they discriminate, most wealthy women only want to be with wealthy guys or with great reputations, or perfect physique’s, …. Etc.

Dating can be fun under the right circumstance but most of the time it isn’t much fun. I think that’s great, it’s not about the numbers it’s about the 1.

I know what I want, and don’t have everything, everything is not ideal for me . Yes there are women of appropriate age group around me when I go into the city or around town but that that does not change my probability, statistically speaking.

Bisexuality is a matter of agreeing in order to actually be bisexual you need to act, by acting you need to negotiate a suitor, that female suitor might be heterosexual yet has interest to explore her sexuality…. IN today’s society it was more excepted for women to be this way.

Finally, if I could be married to a bi-sexual woman, be a stay at home dad, I would be a very happy happy man, (I would settle for a heterosexual woman as well) …



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23 Mar 2011, 10:54 pm

Bimin, it's not prejudice. It's looking for the ONE person that you want to spend the rest of your life with, and if you know that there are things you wouldn't like then it's not worth it to spend the time hanging out with the guy and getting his hopes up. Women have less time to waste in getting to that decision than men do, so they have to be efficient. Women can't help what they find attractive any more than men can, though luckily for all of us we tend to like different things from person to person.



Bimin
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23 Mar 2011, 11:44 pm

LKL wrote:
Bimin, it's not prejudice. It's looking for the ONE person that you want to spend the rest of your life with, and if you know that there are things you wouldn't like then it's not worth it to spend the time hanging out with the guy and getting his hopes up. Women have less time to waste in getting to that decision than men do, so they have to be efficient. Women can't help what they find attractive any more than men can, though luckily for all of us we tend to like different things from person to person.


While prejudice may not me the entire reason, prejudice is the majority. Searching for your soul mate is something you seam to be devoted to and I am sure there are others but there are many more who do not wait, you are right , I don't like to get people's hopes up either, some women don't want that, some women don't want children. Men are visually stimulated, women rely less on visual stimulation, I believe the media is to blame for many current dating trends, friends influence, are factors that weighs heavily on many females in dating choice, this is true, some people like some things and other people like others, the media has also changed that or shifted "likes".



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24 Mar 2011, 4:09 am

Lilya wrote:
Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"?


Here's the thing, though.

Guys are still sexually attracted to nice plain Jane type of girls even if they are also attracted to Jenna Jameson (I personally don't find her attractive) and the likes.



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24 Mar 2011, 9:30 am

MCalavera wrote:
Lilya wrote:
Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"?


Here's the thing, though.

Guys are still sexually attracted to nice plain Jane type of girls even if they are also attracted to Jenna Jameson (I personally don't find her attractive) and the likes.


I can't claim I can confirm or argue that, but it is certainly causing a good bit of occasional confusion for quite a few ladies wondering what actually are desirable traits/elements and when one ends up turning majority off by certain look/behaviour. Make-up is good, too much is bad, if you cover up, you're a nun, if you wear a miniskirt, you're a whore etc. It can be difficult to draw a line on what/when is too much or inappropriate (Sexy vs. tasteless). I lot of young girls especially mime what they see on media, as it is supposed to define the "ideal" on the behalf of general public. Id est, guide to max attraction and positive image/gain for the girl. Media generally speaking doesn't generate the image of plain Jane type being attractive (for men or women). Media, however, does remind that women such as our example Jenna, though controversial, still has enormous power on the opposite sex and that shows in her popularity and paycheck. It's a typical mindset on women to imagine that men tell they prefer certain type of "good girl", but secretly fantacize of someone much more outrageous.

There are quite a few people (men and women) who have bluntly stated that in the end, girl's face isn't as much of importance for a man as certain other parts (below the waistline). I would imagine especially when it comes to short-term romances (there are two researches supporting this) women tend to pay more attention to man's face and pysical attractiveness than a man would on woman. Woman is the one getting penetrated, sex is something very personal for a woman. Women understandably tend to be very picky on their (especially short-term) partners.

I'm a very visual person myself, I can't help having a tendency to seek a very specific "look" in my partners.



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29 Mar 2011, 5:22 pm

Another good "nice guys/jerks" link:

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/19/im-n ... niqueness/


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LKL
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30 Mar 2011, 1:56 am

pat2rome wrote:
Another good "nice guys/jerks" link:

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/19/im-n ... niqueness/

very interesting link. It does raise the question, 'why do young men (and many adult men) feel the need to posture in such a way?' I guess our patriarchal culture really reinforces that dogma of manhood as much as it reinforces the dogma of womanhood that feminists hate so much.



HodgeieHodgeMarcel
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30 Mar 2011, 7:39 am

Someone told me that you have to treat a woman mean to keep them keen. I think thats a load of BS. :wall: what do u think?