"Heartless b*****s"(includes words of advice)

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While most points on the page might be valid however I don't buy them all, there are some hints of prejudicing there.

As you see, what they are describing is the annoying pushy guy more than anything else, such kind of guys can be either genuinely nice or even genuinely jerk, it's not a matter of jerk or nice, it's a matter that the guy they're describing is being p**** and pushy. "The Nice guys syndrome" is a totally different issue of a totally different nature, and if in case it is, then it's only a small part of the issue.


I think that women in women's magazines and websites tend to often bring up "The Nice guys syndrome" subject as a defense against the "girls don't like nice guys" or "girls prefer jerks" stereotypes, their message usually can be summed up : "no guys, it's not true, it's all in your head, you had it all wrong. It's the "nice" guys that we hate, and you're confusing "'jerks" with confident guys".

Personally, I believe that they have a feeling of subconscious 'guilt' that they're trying so hard to mask by a different specific extreme case (The nice syndrome guy).


However....

The "girls don't like nice guys" or "girls prefer jerks/bad boys" aren't observable phenomena that only exist in the WP aspie guys's heads , there are plenty of NT men who tell me the same, and these men are currently either married or in relationship and had plenty of relationships before. It's not like I blindly 100% believe everything what they say, but yea....it makes me wonder about its validity.

The women's actions? I witness a lot of cases and situations that remind of what those men above say, and they go hand in hand well with their theories.

One of the most typical real life cases I witness is of a wife or a girlfriend who's being cheated, lied and mistreated by her husband ,sometimes even physically confronted , she cries, she whines about her partner's behavior, she goes back to her mom, she says that she will no longer stay with him yet, after few days, she goes back to him! Such cases also often happen with the same woman over and over again. I am sure many of you witnessed such cases too, it's everywhere.

What's even funnier, than the nice guy in a struggling marriage is often more quickly and faster to be abandoned than the cheater a**hole.


Not to even mention what we witness in high school ....hell, I can write pages about this one, but if any of you had the least of touch with reality while you were at school, you would understand to what I am referring to. I don't feel like to recall them now, too much fat worm cans there that I don't feel like to open them again.

We can also witness of this collective female teen 'love' toward the jerkier fictional character and their collective negation of the nicer characters: Cullen (a freakily pale vampire with some niceness---> fancied by many) vs Harry potter (nice, peaceful and sweet, not much fancied) , James Bond (bad boy--> fancied by many) vs Sherlock Holmes (gentleman--> gay) , Jack Sparrow (bad boy character ---> fancied by many vs Will Turner (faithful lover and gentleman ---> Will who?). None of the Lord of the Rings' heroes are not fancied in a hype way (well I am sure some fancy Aragorn or the elf ...but not even as hype-ly close to Cullen or Sparrow) because none of them display jerk characteristics, they are all noble and genuine nice characters.

Even there were some hints and random comment on WP by female posters here and there that show some likeness toward jerky characteristics in guys and in contract also some dislikeness of niceness characteristics such as sweetness.

So yea, it's not only a matter of the "nice syndrome guy", you ladies should try harder to convince us that those stereotypes above don't often exist in life without using "nice syndrome guy" extreme case as execuse again.

I have a lot of female friends but it's always platonic because I'm asexual. I'm the one who's shoulder gets cried on. To be honest, I'm not sure if it's heterosexuals I don't understand or if this is normal throughout all sexual identities and it's just NTs I don't understand. Anyway, here's what I've learned about seemingly average, nt heteros:

1. The "nice guy" always hurts the woman more. He pretends to be nice by not calling her vulgar names, and by being polite, but he still cheats, lies and eventually dumps. (IMO, it's probably easier for women to date the 'bad guy' because, in the end, they know what's coming. No surprises, no hurt feelings) I've seen women revert to this after being heartbroken by seemingly, self-professed nice guys.

2. These guys tend to present as having low self-esteem, complaining that women don't like them, won't accept them, and then give an entire list of reasons that they are unpleasing to women. Some go so far as to become bitter and call women superficial - and worse. Yet, these same guys will only date the most beautiful women, turning down the less attractive. Then, they sit in the apartment and complain about not being able to get a date. (Had a male friend who did this. He said he said he envied me for not desiring women. I said I envied lesbians.)

3. This happened right in front of me and caused two problems. I was with a female friend and a guy approached her. He hit on her with me standing right there. Even tho she and I weren't dating, it did irk me a bit. She kindly turned him down, and he immedietely began pressing her as to why she didn't want to exchange numbers. From there, he began berating her about women not trusting men, and from there asked why women don't like nice guys. I had to wonder, is this the idea of a nice guy? Also, I wondered why she just didn't say that she was with me. That could have stopped the verbal s**t spew right there. Then again, I suppose I could have said something too. Maybe I should have. Most hetero men assume I'm gay. Was afraid I'd get beat up.

4. Everything else. Complain, scapegoat, hypocritical arguments (man accusing women of doing same thing man does, as if it's ok in one case but not the other), guilt trips, false accusations (if she dates a less than macho guy, she's a b***h who wants a feminine man she can push around, yet if she dates a macho guy, she's the typical woman always going for the bad guy). Why aren't more women lesbians?


Men and women - watching them interact is like viewing an alien species through a giant projector. I can never understand them, especially when it comes to sexuality. I guess I understand women a bit more than hetero sexual men, as a lot of what they do is simply damage control, or to get out of a situation with a pushy or irrational nt man. Nonetheless, both seem foreign to me.


So I have two questions, one for men and one for women:

1. Why do women dress skimpy to flirt when they don't really want a sexual encounter? Isn't the whole purpose of dressing sexy to draw sexual attention?

2. Why do men project their own traits onto women and then verbally attack women for what they, the men, actually did? Example -a man puts all kinds of limitations on a woman (usually happens in religion), decides what she can and can not do, demands she be home when he is so she can cook for him and such, limiting her freedom, but then turns around and complains it's hard to be married and calls her a ball and chain? Wouldn't HE be the ball and chain?

I just don't understand these things. Would like some feedback from both men and women.

you know i can't resist this...

so i must be dating a jerk, right? of the guys i could have dated, it should be a mean and nasty one, correct? because "girls don't like nice guys" or "girls prefer jerks/bad boys". however it's not the case - not even a little bit.

i am not an exception, as there is evidence to the contrary all over the place. if you look at which people are single and which are dating or married, there is a mixture of jerks and nice men in both groups (and really, no man or woman is 100% one type or the other - they are people with aspects and depth and personalities). it's not like you can look around yourself at a party and see that all the jerkish men brought a date and all the single men are the nice ones, as it just isn't true.



Logitor, i'll answer your question. wait, except i don't have an answer. some study showed that the women in a nightclub who were showing the most skin were ovulating at the time. and the women who showed even more skin were ovulating... and NOT unattached. i have no idea what the heck is going on there.

i dress in a most revealing manner when i am single and "looking", or when i am out WITH my significant other. occasionally in other instances i wear something low-cut or sexy as i find the effect fascinating, especially in a non-sexual environment. i am pushing 40, so if someone looks, HELL YEAH BRING IT ON. it's quite interesting to watch the effect (and lack of effect) on different males. when i was younger i was more fearful of the effect of my sexuality on men, partly because i was not good at saying "no" or establishing boundaries, and now that i am older and mentally stronger i view it this stuff with a kind of curiosity.

Are you saying that some men are instinctively hardwired and doomed to be nice guys whilst others are hardwired to be assertive alphas? I agree that some people on the spectrum take the terms literally and view it in black and white.



Exactly, as hyperlexian said, she dresses that way to get attention and see the responsive behavior of other males, women are more passive than men. At the very core of human psychology and behavior are the twin concepts of attention and approval, It is a hardwired instinct to attract a mate and reproduce. Women are also very competitive with each other in many cases, that could possibly be another reason, depending on the circumstances. It's similar to men being competitive about who has the better car or social status.

Men are increasingly becoming insecure, confused and shaped by what magazines, media and society in general is telling them they need to be in order to get a woman and women are increasingly confused by magazines and media pressuring them to be something they're not and because of this, a generation of self proclaimed nice guys are born. Women haven't logically progressed from wanting a protector and provider in one. For instance, a passive less desired or outgoing man can be a great provider but not a protector. In the past, a man had to be a protector and provider in order to survive and mate.

Popular media tells people to rely on their bank account, looks and sexuality to feel a sense of worth, ultimately making people dependent. Look around these forums, it's chalk full of guys who don't know which way is up. Men spend huge amounts of money on clothes, cars, houses and take on enormous debt to fuel the economy while trying to out-compete the next guy because of popular culture.

Then why this belief exists that excessively among men in USA, Canada, Europe....and even the Middle-East? Besides, you dismissed my concrete examples.

I dont know that Mr Darcy ever was a sociopath though. He was a bit snobby but he had a kind, generous nature underneath his snooty reserve.

The fact that a lot of people believe in something doesnt make it true.

A lot of people believed that the earth was flat and anyone that dared to contradict that was killed. This didnt change the fact that the earth is round.

A lot of people believe that aspies cant feel emotions, this doesnt change the fact that while we may have some trouble displaying emotions we do feel things.

I could go on and on about misconceptions that are believed by millions of people nowadays(ever heard about creationists and how they wish to refuse the existance of evidence that point towards evolution?) and still arent true so the fact that an idea has a huge fan base doesn´t make it true.

Last edited by spongy on 19 Oct 2011, 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Some of his actions on the book(ie convincing his best friend that Jane doesnt love him)seem sociopath-ish to me(no matter how many explanations we get at the end). You are free to have your own opinion on this character´s nature.

not even a little bit, but i don't even think most people can fit neatly into either category regardless. just saying that the guy i am dating is not a jerk, though supposedly he should be according to the logic that "all women like jerks".


i am not passive though. i am a pursuer (am sometimes also pursued, but my default is to pursue men).


EDIT: what i am saying is that.... i wasn't actually seeking to attract a mate with a low-cut shirt, as if i wanted to have a mate i would get one with more forthright means. it is a conscious choice to wear something like that and is not something that happens by default or instinct.

more about being passive vs. aggressive... the best ever situation happened when there was mutual pursuit. for me it is rare.


Boo, your example of Harry Potter..... tons of girls thought he was right sexy, but he was portrayed as a boy not as an older teenager or man until the later movies. Sherlock Holmes is also considered sexy. many women like the actors who have played James Bond but few like the character - it is MEN who seem to be really into the character. moving on... i have no idea about Sherlock Holmes as he is a old character, but the recent portrayal of him was quite hot... Johnny Depp was famous and considered very sexy before he played Jack Sparrow. his character may be considered attractive in some way, but i don't know anyone who has ever actually dated a person like that so i can't see how it applies. a lot of the nicer characters in LOTR are idols over here. ok, i think i have them all covered.

hyper, do not add the word 'all' to the argument, it wasn't in the formula in the argument. No one said all and no one has included you in the stereotype.

As I said I am just wondering why this belief is common among men , and is it common because of the things I real-life examples cited above? or just a false common assumption? that's all.

I am atheist spongy, so I understand what you're talking about and i did take this into consideration.

But not all common believes are necessarily false too, especially if they are about observable things. What we are talking about is more tangible than God and demons and even than the shape of earth (to the ancient people at least).

For example, it's a so common belief that women prefer confident men (weird that no one objects about this and adds 'all' here) or "men usually don't like fat women" , and this seem to be true, we can see it everywhere.

Then why this one would be a valid belief while the other is not?

I understand that not all common beliefs are false.

IMO it is this simple:females usually decide wether they want to date a man or not(those that are pursuers have been taken out to make this simpler).

Its understandable that most males are bound to be rejected at times. Sometimes this rejections can be for shallow reasons(ie looks...) and sometimes it can be the males fault(he barely knew her and she didnt feel comfortable around him...).

Now think about this wouldnt it be awesome if there was a concept that excluded you of any kind of fault and blamed it all on them?. Even more than that, this concept Im speking about also makes you look like the victim here(you were too kind and she only dates bad guys).

And this is why the females only date bad guys concept is believed by so many males. Instead of trying to work through their flaws/issues most males would rather blame it all on females and expect tofind one willing to look through their issues some day.

Have you read this comic strip? http://www.viruscomix.com/page549.html(reposting it so you may have read it). The guy here sees that the problem is with him and instead of trying to work through his issues he keeps hoping to find someone willing to look beyond them and whats sad is that this is the attitude most males nowadays have.

i think a person could say with some authority that some women are sometimes attracted to men who behave in a jerkish manner. there's no stretch in that - it's perfectly reasonable. it's when we extend that idea and try to generalise that it becomes less useful. it's not really all that helpful to even worry about that phenomenon because men who behave nicely are not excluded from dating. acting nicely is not a knock-out factor for most men seeking to attract women.

and Boo... about confident men and fat women... i think confidence increases men's chances and skinniness increases women's chances to a degree... but they are not everything. a man can be unconfident and still get dates, and the same goes for fat women (i.e. me).

blanket statements have many exceptions, and maybe we need to look more closely at the exceptions as none of us fits into boxes really. instead of looking at generalisations that inevitably exclude a certain percentage of people, i think it is more productive to think creatively and look at what can help an individual person to develop his or her own opportunities. we don't date generalisations - we date individual people with individual personalities.