NT female seeks input on AS male's fears

Post Reply New Topic

I know what you mean, lol.
Not at that point in life at the moment so I can only take that at face value until I notice this for myself.
I get the concept but I'm one of those that has to see it happening first before I can say for certain whether it is more containable.

I get that. Sometimes I can see a concept is intellectually valid, but that doesn't mean that I also feel that it's valid. If I lose a contact lens in the bathroom, I know it's got to be in the room, but if I'm not feeling confident, I get a strong feeling that it's vanished. I've never let myself believe that, so I've found the lens. But if I was feeling really down, I might accept it had gone, and hardly bother to look.

We Aspies have to build our own social intelligence from ground zero, block by block, if we're going to get anywhere at all in life. If we make that a lifelong special interest, it's hard to believe we won't get any better. Just my 2 cents.

Not necessarily true that you have to feel down about losing a contact lens, I'm more of a glass half-empty type.
Doesn't mean I have to be down to not want to find it.
Also I have enough social interaction to get by...

They can lead to anger, especially if ignored and allowed to pile up. But if I'm irritated, and aware of it, that doesn't mean I'm angry. Although, in the case of anger, although there are subtle shadings that I do think are important, you might get away with it - but what about other emotions, where the variations are much more complex? You're the only one who can determine what you're going to do, but I think this system as anything more than a stopgap measure will lead to as many misunderstandings as it clears up.



I've heard of it, and keep meaning to get my hands on a copy. So far, I haven't, though. Too many other books, too little time. But it's on the list. (Which should qualify as a book in its own right...)



I don't know how unusual this is - but you could be describing my wife here (who, although probably not quite on the spectrum, has traits. Many traits). And I've been told a few times I do this, too. So I doubt it is that weird.



I don't remember who made that claim, because I promptly ignored them. There are things that can help / be useful. When anyone starts talking "cure", I tune in to another channel. And I love that slogan; there's a lot of truth to it. Any trait that gets you singled out negatively is a "disability" - until people stop singling you out for it.

I've got so many thoughts to post here that I had to make notes (if I don't clear things from my mind, I'll try to remember all of them, which gets to be a strain after five or six fairly complex ideas have piled up). I'm not sure how much I'll manage to post tonight, but I'll get to it.

I'm going to try to deal with a few points in this post. I apologise in advance for the disorganisation, and the lack of editing.

First, you asked what we thought about your mentioning to him your suspicions that he has AS. I'm torn. On the one hand, the knowledge can be very helpful. The more I have learned to understand how I work, the easier I find it to work around issues I want to work around. And I know, if it were me, and I found someone had suspected this and said nothing, I'd feel I couldn't trust them. On the other hand... there are reasons he's not likely to accept this easily. First, because the diagnostic criteria are based on external appearances, which do not match our internal reality in various ways. Until I realised that I needed to at least consider how I appeared to other people, not what I knew was going on in here, I couldn't believe those criteria fit me. Second, he's sure to have had problems in the past - and only people who are already secure are likely to want that type of label being attached to them. I'm not saying there is actually anything "wrong" with us - but every single one of us knows that's exactly how most of the world interprets the label, and with our experience of having been bullied, singled out, etc., it is natural for us - or at least it was for me - to avoid it as long as possible. So I don't know what's best. I wish I could help you.

I don't know if I was clear enough in what I said about truth. To us, it underpins reality. Or at least it does to me. Yes, there are complex issues. People may believe different things, and there may not be one "true" answer. But there is truth, and it underpins reality. This is tied up with our "black and white thinking", which I don't think is what it's usually assumed to be.

The trouble is, everyone is guilty of black and white thinking. NTs are at least as much prone to this as we are - but in different ways. We stand out because we don't apply it in the same ways, or to the same areas. A perfect example? The minor untruths you were talking about. Personal opinion is one of those complex things. There are supermodels I find ugly. A lot of them, actually... But most people lie when asked if someone looks good, to avoid "hurting their feelings". If those people didn't apply black and white thinking, and get upset because an individual doesn't think they look good, that wouldn't happen. They'd shrug it off and assume taste is a personal thing. But, to them, if one person doesn't like how they look, they "look bad".

Or look at the Titanic disaster. What caused the Titanic to sink? In reality, it was a complex set of factors. Design that made poor assumptions (the watertight bulkheads didn't go all the way up, because the designers assumed there would never be a case where the weight of water would cause the hull to dip that low into the water). A failure to understand metallurgy due to the limitations of technology and science at the time (the hull plates were fatally brittle at the temperatures they were exposed to). Haste and disregard for the reports of icebergs in the vicinity. Unusually large icebergs having broken off previously, at the right time to have drifted into the sealanes, due to weather and astronomical factors breaking off larger chunks of ice from the glaciers further north (this just came out a few months ago, in fact). But ask any NT: they'll have a pet theory, and be impatient with any attempt to suggest a more complex scenario. The Titanic is the example that's been in the news lately, but in actuality, every major disaster I've studied in detail (emergency preparedness having been one of my obsessions) has been due to several things going wrong - that's why an otherwise minor disaster turns into a major one. But NTs want simple answers, so they can believe the problem has been solved and feel safe again.

Or look at the justice system. I was just reading an article I'd saved a while ago from the New York times about DNA evidence. One man was charged with murdering his daughter and her friend. (Laura Hobbs and Krystal Tobias of Zion Illinois, if you want to google it.) He was pressured to confess. Then, semen was found in all of her orifices - and the DNA did not match his. Yet he was held for several more years, awaiting trial. The prosecutor claimed it didn't matter, because she'd picked up the semen playing in the woods, where couples had sex. Why would a prosecutor and judge believe such an idiotic explanation? Because he was already a felon, he'd confessed, and they wanted to believe that the person who'd done such a disgusting thing had been caught. (I'm not arguing the guy they were holding was a saint - but holding him kept them from looking for the real killer. Which, considering what he did, was important, a lot more so than just feeling safe and comfortable.)

This is one reason I cling to truth - because reality is so easily swamped by such NT foibles, and because I see them so clearly. I don't deny that we aren't prone to our own black and white thinking, just that it isn't that simple. Not "people with AS think in black and white and NTs think in colour", which is what most people assume. They don't even notice they think in black and white when it suits them, or that we're thinking in colour when we "make simple things complicated". This, of course, influences how we communicate. We see the things others miss - and, to be fair, they see things we miss; I don't think one neurology or the other is inherently inferior, they are just different - and so, since they insist we are wrong and they are right, we learn to mistrust them. I could list a number of experiences where I was right, but the NTs around me ignored me, or did so for a time - and every one made it harder for me to trust anyone else's opinion. (This started early; my first cat died at 9 months of age when I was 6. We drove up to the vet's, I heard animals crying out in distress, and assumed it was a bad place. My parents assured me the vet took care of animals... Poor Pollyanna was left there to be spayed and boarded while we went on vacation. When we got back, they said she had a "brain hemorrhage". My second cat was less then 3 when he went to the same vet when I was about twelve. He had FUS, and the vet sent him home and said he'd be fine. He died that night. I heard later from one of his techs he hated small animals. They suffered and died, and he thought it was a joke. )

I won't tell you all the stories, but aside from showing you how we can learn to mistrust what others tell us - when it was obvious to me from the sounds there was something wrong in that place - it illustrates another area of NT black and white thinking. They trust paper credentials. He was a vet, so he "helped animals". They don't pay attention to the crying patients telling another story. The sound of their pleas threatens to stain the white they see, so they ignore it. (Heck, my parents both had traits, and may not have even been NTs - but they'd learned to think more like them over time.)

Edited to add: We are also often accused of being "unable to see the forest for the trees". Again, untrue. The problem is, we either see individual trees (or maybe even just the pattern of bark on a single tree) or we see the forest as a very complex place made up of individual trees, plants, creatures, all different and all interacting. We see the whole ecology, in other words. "Forest", in the way NTs use it, is an abstraction, an oversimplification that may sometimes be useful but at least as often gets in the way of seeing important details. Just because we don't see things from the same perspective NTs do does not, again, mean our approach is any worse, just different. NTs never worry that they can't see the trees for the forest, though...

You may well be right - I appreciate the feedback. Generally, I'm wired for gradual transitions, moderation, easing into things. My "setting" is rarely at 1 or at 10, and I need a while to go from 3 to 8. And surely, I think, there must be some way to "translate" that! But maybe not. If my Aspie's "dial" clicks at 1, 2, 9, and 10, with nothing in between, simply painting numbers 3-8 on it wouldn't be very useful, would it.


Oh, do get it! It's a picture book, like for kids. You could read it in 10 seconds.


Hm, ok. It's definitely weird in NT land! I've never experienced that kind of "energy flow" with an NT, and the few times I've tried to describe it, I can tell they think I'm crazy, so I shut up.

I read about a 5-year-old boy who was diagnosed with AS. His doctor said, "I think I know what's going on with you, young man. You just have too many wires." The kid replied, "no, doctor. It's that the wires aren't insulated well enough." I was so struck by that, because that's how my Aspie feels to me too sometimes. Like standing next to a high-voltage transformer, humming with an electric buzz. No idea what that is. I've described it to him, and he senses it too. So I'm not imagining it.


Ok - looking forward to it!

I've been thinking more about the issue of small untruths, and why I, at least, don't grasp the importance of this. First of all, when it comes to appearances, I don't worry much about it. If I'm decent, and comfortable, then there's nothing to worry about. When I buy clothes, I do try to pick colours & patterns I like, but that's because I'm the one who is going to be in them all day. So any comments on my appearance don't really bother me. (Although I used to get tired of hearing the comments when I was in school, because it seemed the fashions changed in perfect sync with what I was wearing. I'd hear "sweeping the floor?" for months, then, when I got new pants, it would be "waiting for a flood?".)

But, let's look at something I really care about: my writing. Say I wrote a story, and posted it online. As it collected comments, I'd read them, out of interest. If someone I didn't know - and trust - complimented it, I'd assume they were being polite, so it would mean nothing. If someone I knew and trusted thought it was great, that would be nice. I'm not going to try to deny that. And of course, I'd ignore the inevitable idiots who infest the web. I have yet to understand why anyone would bother posting "tl;dr". ("Too long, didn't read" if you've never had an encounter with that one.) Misspelled rants don't bother me at all. In fact, when I ticked off a neo-Nazi one time, I was rather pleased with myself. But, let's say someone I know, or whose opinion I value, picked the story apart. Or say a stranger did, even. Yes, that would be painful, if the critique were coherent enough to give it credibility. But I'd read the points they made, and consider them. It is possible even an intelligent reader won't get every story, and tastes vary, so I might not agree. If I did agree, I'd have learned how to improve my story. So, along with the pain, I'd actually be grateful. (Yes, I do take writing that seriously.) If I didn't, as long as the critique seemed well thought out, I'd still assume the commenter was trying to be helpful.

Say I did care about my appearance, and someone came along and said "That shirt looks awful on you". Well, at least they've told me, so I can change it. I won't go around wearing it any longer and looking like a fool. (Or, alternately, I'd assume they were trying to help, but their fashion sense was so different that I could afford to ignore their advice.) Either way, I might not be exactly pleased they had that opinion, but it would still be useful information. (Some would misinterpret that as meaning I have no feelings and am purely logical - but as I admitted above, even the most helpful crit hurts. It isn't a lack of feeling, it is a preference for information even at the cost of feeling.) Now, say someone lied to me to spare my feelings, and told me I looked great. They'd actually be denying me useful information. (In fact, even NT writers hate the sort of friends who just say "that's nice" to everything they write, because they know it's insincere, and it isn't helpful. If you can understand that perspective at all, just expand it. That lies at the core of why I value truth. I'd rather know. I assume other intelligent beings would, too. So at least in my case, it has nothing to do with "black and white thinking" at all. It's a choice, a different way of looking at things.)

I should add that I felt this way before I was old enough to think it through this clearly. It is a mental orientation, really. I suspect many of us who haven't ever spent much time thinking it through might reveal the same orientation. In part, it may be a result of our early struggles to understand the NT world around us. Since information is so hard for us to obtain, we learn to value it. Or perhaps it is "wired in" differently; there's no way to be sure of that, at least that I can think of.

I truly mean no offense, but to me, this is black-and-white thinking, because I find the reverse to be true just as often. The opinion of a stranger who goes out of their way and makes an effort to compliment my writing means a lot, because there's nothing in it for them. There's no motivation to do that, other than genuine appreciation. Conversely, people in one's "inner circle" have an interest in maintaining a relationship with you. While they are one's inner circle precisely because you like, trust, and respect them, compliments may not be entirely sincere out of fear of hurting your feelings, i.e., fear of causing conflict and unpleasantness. (Whether that fear is well-founded or not.)

I unwittingly engineered a critical, poignant moment early in the relationship with my Aspie (also a writer who takes it very seriously). He'd told me little about himself or his interests, so I read one of his published journal articles, just to see what he was into. Then, to test him, see how he would react, I chose an intimate moment to tell him that I'd read it and thought it was pretty good, but it would've been even better if he'd done X, Y, and Z. His reaction was fantastic. He was amused and a bit injured, but grateful I'd given it to him straight. He made me proofread everything before it went to press after that, "so he didn't get caught publishing crap with his name on it again." I've told a few NT men about that. They were all flabbergasted and said they would've strangled me or started crying. Yes, they would have, which is why my Aspie's reaction was so great.

NTs aren't as tough in that sense. It's not that we don't value truth; we do. It's that, emotionally, psychologically, we can only take so much of it. Particularly in the context of an intimate relationship, we want to be lied to sometimes. We need to be lied to sometimes. And I mean need, like air and water and sleep and food. Too much is a bad thing and pathological, of course; but there is a "normal" level that most people would agree is reasonable. One thing I learned with my Aspie: I never ask a question if I'm afraid I can't handle the brutal, unvarnished truth. Unfortunately, that means there were a lot questions I never had the guts to ask.


In general, I agree with that statement - and from what I'm told, more so than most NTs. My ex would definitely disagree with your statement. The great body of little lies I had to tell him to keep that relationship going - to keep him propped up psychologically - was quite ridiculous. You're right, it is a mental orientation - and his feelings mattered a lot more than the truth.

I have to go now, but I'll respond more later when I can!

What I meant was, I would feel down, I would lose the lens, and then I would feel that I couldn't possibly find it.

As for the "glass half empty" thing, its image plagues me but I tend to soldier on regardless. That is, I keep looking for the contact lens even though my heart keeps saying it's vanished.

If negativity gets out of hand it can bring everybody down, but repressing it wholesale is probably even worse.

Welcome back, by the way


I never had many sexual compliments that weren't rather demurely expressed. I suspect it could unnerve me though.


It wasn't obvious at all to me until recently. I still get stuck for words when I'm complimented. I can do the "thanks!" bit usually, but reciprocating either gets overlooked, or I can't think of the right words quickly enough. Compliments take some time to get by the ethical committee, for one thing. I get that it's the thought that counts, but even so I feel a compulsion to be accurate, and the anxiety about goofing, which I have been know to do. I opened a door for a lady, she said "how nice to meet a gentleman!" and I replied "I certainly am." Taken by surprise I'd had to think quickly, so I found myself responding with that joke, which judging by the look on her face, was taken for arrogance. It's not the way I meant it, it was sarcasm about myself, or something like that, a disfunctional one-liner. A much better response would have been "My pleasure.......that's a lovely dress by the way." It would have been honest - she always wore those long, hippie dresses I admire so much. It was only the time constraints, the social anxiety, and the embarrassment at the initial compliment (I always feel that), that made the difference, but what a difference. Next time, maybe I'll do better. Definitely I think you should give your Aspie the idea of reciprocation. I can be hostile to anything new, and irrationally afraid of sudden calls to share intimacy.


I think my record for conversation is 9 hours. Yet 5 minutes can often have me crawling up the wall.


Yes the sudden interruption can be a strain. But you're not a telemarketer. Still, I don't like impromptu visits unless I'm bored. I'm much better if I know in advance that they're visiting.


I think admitting needs can be very scary. One leaves oneself wide open for a painful rebuttal. I would say start by offering him just one fairly indifferent task, just put out a feeler and see what he makes of it. I might try to phrase it as a request for him opinion on how to fix a problem, to begin with, and if it's something he could do easier than you could, suggest he did it for you, if he didn't already offer. No harm in offering a favour in return, I guess.


Maybe that's where I've been going wrong. I don't know how to settle my emotions before clarifying the problem and finding a solution. So I try to solve the problem while I'm upset. But you mean something worse.


Have you heard of this male "masked dependency needs" thing?

I get your description of the dynamic.
How did you work out that they were dishonestly attacking you? In my case I still don't know for sure what was going on. Some behaviour I've experienced and seen has features I can't easily explain except as denied malice, but despite a lot of reflection the uncertainly remains, which bugs me because if they weren't wrong, I was. I'd love to be able to screen people for it (if it's what I think it is), especially if and when I try again with another partner. And I usually find it's worth checking my own behaviour for these things.


I can understand your frustration, if they just wouldn't put their cards on the table. So the divorce was on the grounds of his emotional cruelty?



I have a bad time with short-term memory and spoken word, which is possibly more about flipping from the detail to the overview, rather than a real memory issue........writing it down helps a lot. Also I can take as long as I like to edit things and get them clear. I suspect drawing "mind maps" would be better still, but the concept is still so strange to me that I haven't been able to do one yet.

Yes it's OK. I don't want to bring it all back for you. Your words show residual anger, not surprisingly. I never really paid anybody back like you did, though I often think it's better than total forbearance, which has a nasty habit of causing the next partner to get it in the neck for the previous one. Sorry it went so badly wrong for you back then.


I've always felt a lot easier about somebody else leading me if I can lead them too, in some comparable way. Strong emotions such as anxiety do seem to spread to others. After living with a woman who had extreme anger management problems for a few weeks, I became quite infected with her anger, until I realised what was happening.

Thank you! This will have to be quick, but I'll respond more later.


Ok, so yes to gently suggesting reciprocating compliments, but maybe no to quantifying shades of emotion. Much of it will simply be empirical experimentation to see what works, but I appreciate the help thinking it through!


Process of elimination, really. I can "mind-read," but I try not to make assumptions or rush to judgments. So I'd point out what they were doing and ask why, but they'd deny doing it. I'd ask them to stop, and tell me what was really bothering them, and they'd say, "stop what? Nothing is bothering me. You're just being a weak, whiny female." So they continued the hurtful behavior, and compounded the pain by insisting that I was imagining it. But I could assess their environment and identify what they felt threatened by - "the dead elephant in the middle of the room." It got to the point where it didn't really matter whether their attacks were dishonest or not. They were causing me pain, refusing to admit it, and wouldn't stop. To me, that defeats the whole purpose of having a relationship - you're supposed to make each other feel GOOD - so I dumped them.


Oh yes! Whoever invents such a screening process will get very, very rich!


No - on the grounds that he's a LOSER. There were only a few times that I would say his behavior qualified as abuse. And I understood where it was coming from - he just couldn't control it, and/or didn't want to. Just irreconcilable differences.

I'm fine with compliments and praise that are believable and genuine.

Sometimes they are obviously quite false and not genuine at all. Women seem to do this often in the context of relationships etc. You were saying earlier something about perhaps men feeling "like a piece of meat" when complimented on their physique as women sometimes do, if a woman sees me as a piece of meat, that doesn't bother me in the least even if I'm not attracted (easy enough to put her off if I'm not). But fake compliments, are firstly patronizing, and secondly, they do nothing to allay insecurity as they seem to be intended to do, in fact, they make it worse or even in some cases cause an insecurity where none had previously existed.

I used to be quite thin when I was younger and very self-conscious about it, and this is exactly the sort of thing women tend to use compliments for, so I'll use that as an example of the difference:

"You're not that skinny" - I would think, but not say: "Gee, thanks for pointing that out. Your face isn't that ugly either. How do you like that?" and go into shutdown mode.

"Maybe it's just me, but I find skinny guys hot" - Much better. This is believable. It's not technically a compliment, being a statement of personal preference, but it works just fine as one regardless. Might or might not feel a little put on the spot depending on the context, but that's a completely separate issue altogether.

The way some women use compliments, if men used them the same way, women would just burst into tears.

If I seemed to be suggesting great caution with the shades of emotion thing, I was probably just adding my habitual caution to my advice on anything to do with trying to influence people. I think both those ideas are worth a shot.


If it's not too painful, do you have any exemplary snapshots of what they did? Or just a generalised example of what you conceive passive aggressive behaviour to be? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm not clear on the nature of passive-aggression. I get that it's hidden, denied attacks....you mean like selling your car, he'd have acted surprised if you'd complained, and refuse to entertain the idea that it could possibly have inconvenienced or offended you?


I agree that there comes a point at which wondering why becomes irrelevent and you have to protect yourself.

I hear that! Me, I'd have trouble condemning any of my exes so confidently, though I don't mean that as a holier-than-thou thing. One good thing about my past partner is that her filthy temper set me a precedent to feel OK about venting a little myself.......though even when I did, I part of me was wondering if I was really being fair. Aspie pathological honesty I guess........how can a human show their full range of feelings and remain absolutely precise? Not sure if I make sense there.
Hope I didn't provoke any bad feelings by encouraging you to talk about those days.

I'm here too just reading at the moment, versus contributing.

I've been wondering that as well.[/quote/]

Ditto. The more I read, the more i wonder about myself too....thanks for sharing, and sorry to just jump in like this. This thread has been fascinating and helpful with my own NT/AS relationship, so thanks to you all. Just not in a position to contribute just now.

Generally did your topic not cover as much and feel quite stuck since the issue isn't resolved yet? A simple yes or no if you wish not to discuss here comfortably.