Sexism on L&D

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I think this has been agreed to by all about four thousand times at this point. There is absolutely nobody, to my knowledge, on this board saying that only men are capable of sexism or that only men's posts should be modded for sexism. If you're terrified that this will happen, then perhaps you should think about where the fear's coming from, because it isn't coming from this site.

Next objection?

Huh. You know, I hadn't even thought about that. I don't know that she'd want to dedicate *that* much time, but I'll ask her...maybe she'd be willing to be a consultant, of sorts.

Ah, but what is "sexist/racist/homophobic hatred" exactly? I've been forced into silence about religious views while someone trashes my faith simply because the Bible has some supposedly nasty things to say about homosexuality. I'll get a, um, "corrective action" if I so much as reference that a religious text says such-and-such about a certain behavior. I don't even have to promote or advocate that view; just mention that according to the Bible, this. And that's in a forum specifically for discussing religion and philosophy. So if that's all it takes to be perceived as hateful, and that's all it takes to be a homophobic bigot, then we need to stop trashing religion as well.

While we're at it, I don't like all this negative, hateful talk about conservatism and capitalism. So can we stop trashing certain political views and promoting collectivism/statism/communism while we're at it? K, thanx!

Why would you be complaining about "women's dating preferences" when pretty much anything you can say there is going to be wrong? We're not a monolith. If you want to complain about women not preferring *you*, that's one thing, but the problem's when you decide to build a sexist theory out of it by generalizing about what women want.

Plenty of people do this respectfully. You can vent about rejection without making blanket statements about women. You can express frustration without blaming women. You can ask questions about women without making statements about "what women want/do". You don't need to be awful to women in order either to be validated or to blow off steam.

That's great, but not if you're hurting other people with what you're airing.

Sure, and that's one of the reasons why running out with the banning spray doesn't make sense to me. Modding individual comments does. If someone's posting sexist drivel, but doesn't know/understand that it's sexist drivel, well, here's your chance to learn. Your comment's disappeared because, please read the policy.

People come onto this forum to reflect their dating experiences, a lot of them are lousy, people complain about lousy experiences. Part of the coping process involves trying to make sense of things and exploring why they happened.

I realize the maturing process is a little faster in some people than it is in others, and that we don't always have a great outlook on things, but you have to option of refuting our ideas or just ignoring them. No matter how disagreeable our ideas over here get, your livelihood won't be affected.

If she doesn't have to much time then maybe she could be a special guest or something.

You know what maybe you're right and Dox is right when I truthfully think about it. Would the three strikes work? When I think about it with all of our personalities, differing beliefs, interpretations of things, etc I would have to be hesitant to implement sort of a thing. Both of you are right on that. I will have to recant the three strike thing I said that Dox quoted and admit that both of you have a point there.

I'm not itching for a fight, so the next few comments I have will be pretty close to the last ones I have on the issue.

But you have to deal with how someone is going to perceive it. If a man twists and bends himself in every way imaginable to make himself, I dunno, "eligible material" for women and still gets rejected, then, yeah, it feels like mistreatment. If a man wants sex (never mind the fact he's a jerk) and feels like his culture has promised him sex or pressures him to be a sex god and women don't respond, it feels like mistreatment because women aren't giving him what he's owed.

The issue is that some guys honestly feel that way and I believe this is what's being acted out. The point is to gauge the perception, offer solutions to bring that perception back in line with reality, and make the world right again. I see WP as a supportive community, and language that tears men down, even if we're wrong, is not supportive. I'm not saying support bad behavior. I'm saying be supportive in finding a way to help someone understand the reality of how the world works and cope with it in an appropriate manner.

We can't listen if someone isn't allowed to speak.



You and I both know that. But not everyone knows that or actually believes it because they've been screwed over too many times from experience. I've been there, done that, and it sucks. And let's face it, some people, myself included, just have to reach a point at which they say "ENOUGH!! ! I'm not DOING THIS anymore!! ! I'm FED UP! I will NOT let AS/autism define me!! !! I WILL meet women and build positive relationships. I'm so SICK AND EFFING TIRED OF FEELING SORRY FOR MYSELF!! !!" You're dealing with people who aren't ready to take that step yet. I'm not ignoring the fact that you and I both need support in our own ways, but let's not let our hurt keep us from helping out others who are just as damaged as we are, even if their experiences are different from ours.

Oh, and before I move on, it will become obvious after talking to people for a little while, reasoning with them, being kind, etc., that it becomes obvious they LIKE where they are and have no interest in changing. I simply stop talking to them. I'll be there to help them when they're ready, but time is too short as it is.


If I get a chance, I'll dig up some WP posts similar to what I'm talking about. Follows the same kind of pattern of discussing infanticide with feminists, but let's not go there?

In effect, telling someone essentially that they can't express frustration with the opposite sex because of so many negative experiences IS saying that. That's the message. If your goal is that men and women should be treated equally, then EITHER both get to express negative views OR we have to sweep negative feelings under the rug. I don't see a gray area or middle ground here. Maybe there is, but I just don't see it.


OK, fine?

Well, why IS this so hard to comprehend? Why is the message getting so obscured? I think it's because we're operating under a very familiar pattern--protected class gets offended, protected class yells enough to get attention, protected class gets what they want at the expense of everyone else. Maybe you're intentions are pure, but past experience (for a lot of people, men AND women included) has shown very often this isn't the case. It's nothing personal, but curbing freedom of expression has a long history of going beyond something seemingly as simple as what you're proposing.


No, it has nothing to do with me as a person or my own personal experience. It DOES have EVERYTHING to do with my gender. When women discuss negative experiences they've had with men, they discuss negative experiences they've had with MEN. With MEN? People that have certain physical characteristics like me. I don't like how that makes us look, and THAT is offensive to me. You should keep those things to yourself, amiright?

If that's not how you feel, then look at it the other way: Men are discussing woes with women and it offends you. Now you're saying we can't do that. I'm not sure I understand how that's fair. If we can't do it, you shouldn't be able to, either.

And look?this isn't a personal thing, either. The only way I can get behind this kind of censorship is if we have a "this far and no further" attitude towards enforcing the no-sexism rule. I mean, I don't hate black people, but there are elements of black culture I'm not wild about. I don't go around saying "I hate stupid n!gg4 music, " I just say "I don't find hip-hop aesthetically appealing." I don't tell people I used to work in an all-black public school--I say I used to work in predominantly minority schools. When I mention having worked with/among underprivileged welfare recipients who have built up a culture of ignorance and government dependency, I mean exactly that, and I do NOT say I worked with/among stupid, hateful, black baby-mamas who encourage their daughters to get pregnant early so they can get another check and spit on the daughters who persist on not being defined by skin color/sub-culture and honestly try to make the most of the opportunities they have. I can honestly say those things because I was THERE, I got to know those people and their problems, and I've sat in health department/emergency hospital waiting rooms. Heck, I even got yelled at by a GUIDANCE COUNSELOR for helping an underprivileged, minority girl get into an exclusive, state-supported boarding school for visual and performing arts. But I've also worked for bankruptcy/family/SSI lawyers, teachers, school administrators, parents, and even (minority) middle-school/high school students who were kind enough to pull me aside and help me master the lingo so I wouldn't keep making a fool of myself.

What you're dealing with here are a few men who honestly don't know any better. And while I can't say anything to excuse their behavior, I CAN point out that they are people, too, who need gentle correction. I would be VERY cautious pushing for even the kind of censorship you're proposing because it seems to me that it would foster a much unfriendlier atmosphere than we already have?and despite the views I've expressed in the past, I've RARELY felt threatened by other WP members and feel that it is for the most part a friendly, supportive site.

IF this happens, you WILL have a situation in which your own views will be attacked through silencing rather than merely having their contents unpacked. And, no, this isn't a threat. I've seen this happen to other users?not necessarily users I personally liked, often users that highly offended me, but nonetheless had things to say that were thought provoking and, if nothing else, entertaining. But shutting people out, you shut out folks who, like you, also have value and can contribute positively to this community. Once someone who feels marginalized figures out the door swings both ways, you'll have your own views likewise censored. I don't feel you deserve that kind of hostility, but it will eventually happen if things go the way you say you want.

ok let me get this straight:

women experience rape/harassment at the hands of male perpetrators. they publicly discuss these experiences. you hear/read these discussions. your response is to be offended with the women who are discussing what happened to them, and not with the men who did the raping/harassing.

am i correct?

edit* to add: when the women are discussing their experiences, notice they are not saying "all men raped me" or "all men have harassed me" or "i expect every man i encounter to try and rape me" or ANYTHING ELSE about all men. a woman talking about one guy that did one thing is not the same as saying "a couple women i dated were mean to me therefore all women are whores". if a woman said something like "a man raped me and therefore all men are rapists" then obviously that would be wrong and sexist and inaccurate, and would be deleted for the same reason "all women are whores" would be deleted. this is not rocket science--i am becoming increasingly convinced that you are being intentionally obtuse.

You are incorrect. Both women and men should be equally free to discuss any issues they have with the opposite sex, no matter what that issue is. End of story. If men can't share their negative experiences, then women shouldn't share their negative experiences, either. I'm not seeing any equitable middle ground here.

no man here has had negative experiences with every single woman on earth and so can't make generalised statements about all women on earth. i can say "i was raped by one man". i cannot say "all men are rapists" without expecting to have my comment deleted and receiving a warning. stop making the same false comparison over and over.

I think the existence of dating sites/apps is sexist since they're mostly just a joke for women to get attention. Mentioning them should be against the rules. lol

AngelRho, I get what you're saying. The problem is that this isn't a wayward boys' camp. It has to be welcoming, safe, friendly for women, too. And to say to women: Oh, nevermind those louts saying horrible things about you, they'll learn eventually -- you know, that's not good enough, doesn't do the job.

So let's say Wayward Boy arrives here all full of rage at rejection and his perceived ripoff of a life because he's not getting what he mistakenly believes he was promised. He shows up with these flamethrower ragey-against-the-female-machine rants fresh from some redpill site. His post is modded. But you're right, that's not enough. So are you willing then to serve on a PM team to talk to this guy and say dude, your head is full of drivel, I'm really sorry and I feel ya, a lot of us have been there, but here, let us help you detox and rejoin humanity? And in the meantime no, you absolutely cannot post like that here? Because it sounds to me like that's the kind of thing you want to see available.