Consequences in "why to ask first"

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Dox47
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27 Aug 2014, 11:06 pm

So, the tl;dr version is that if you're ever accused of any sort of sexual wrongdoing, regardless of any lack of evidence, due process, etc, you'll be treated as guilty until proven innocent and subject to social ostracism, a directed social media attack campaign, and libel/slander, because feminism... Terrific, really paints the whole movement in a wonderful light.

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tarantella64
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27 Aug 2014, 11:20 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Once again, overreading and exaggerating wildly in order to avoid the very simplest of messages:

Before you so much as touch the lady, ask if it's okay. And if she doesn't say yes, don't.

I might add: If you're in a position of power with respect to the woman professionally, forget about it. Just plain don't. Not if you're keeping your job.

As it happens, in both cases I cite there is evidence and/or at least lukewarm admission. In fact it's one of the first thing that happens: inspection of the story, evidence, what the accused has to say.

We are dealing with another such issue in my department now. The fellow, bless his heart, thinks the episode has been all wrapped up and is over. There is evidence -- painfully incriminating evidence, more than enough for the university to find the complaint founded.

All three of these cases came from ignoring two simple rules, valid for both men and women:

1. Ask first and stop unless the answer is yes.
2. And if it's someone junior to you professionally, over whom you have power, don't even think about it.

Dox47
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28 Aug 2014, 12:34 am

tarantella64 wrote:

Once again, overreading and exaggerating wildly in order to avoid the very simplest of messages:

Oh no, I think I get your message just fine, you're just trying to hide the fact that you're not so much arguing as making a threat at this point, not that you've ever really argued in the first place.

tarantella64 wrote:

As it happens, in both cases I cite there is evidence and/or at least lukewarm admission. In fact it's one of the first thing that happens: inspection of the story, evidence, what the accused has to say.

You mean the CoH guy saying that yeah, he fooled around with this person years ago and doesn't remember anything untoward about it? That's an admission" in your book? Now personally, I'd have shut up and sued, but apparently this guy is more interested in attempting to appease feminists than in actually clearing his name, which appears to be going swimmingly for him.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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28 Aug 2014, 2:20 am

Yet again and again, while you claim that all women don't like spontaneity, I see thread on dating forums like these on the internet:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3087240.aespx

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14607032.aspx

Where the responses of most of the female users are "be spontaneous" - and they make it clear that asking is a turn off! I made once a simple count and like 90% of the female users there want the kiss spontaneous.
It was the case in most of online discussion regarding this subject on every dating site's forum.

So seriously, if this "rule" is bad and has bad consequences, then men aren't the only guilty ones for promoting a such "rule", as you can see a lot of women demand it.

Here an interesting article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27831626

Even among the comments, women and men are objecting against the verbal asking - personally I think shifting to a verbal consent is way better; damn to the signals and games, damn to Soap's "romance" - let's make all things clear, I think people are too brainwashed by romance movies beyond common sense, people should go back to common sense.

StarvingArtist and tarantella, do you know what I advise you to do to take a part in this social change? and to be more effective at it?

I think it would be useful if you both go to forums.plentyoffish.com, and to address the women users there and explaining to them how promoting spontaneity in dating is dangerous and bad for them and how it make millions of other women fall victims of harassment. This would be way more effective than fighting the same guys here on wrongplanet.

This "spontaneity kiss rule" will only die if the majority of women expect and demand an "ask first for kiss" rule - as long there are a lot and lot of women like we are seeing in pof, then it won't die.

It would be nice to see how the discussions with them would be. :p GO get em!!

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 28 Aug 2014, 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

TallyMan
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28 Aug 2014, 3:17 am

^ Well said Boo. The most sensible post so far in the thread.

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tarantella64
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28 Aug 2014, 3:49 am

Boo, we do exactly that sort of thing here, with both young men and young women. POF is an older (sometimes much older) crowd, so it makes sense to focus on younger people. The media message is still very much "sweep her off her feet", and a lot of young women actually don't know that they have a say in what goes on beyond "I'm not ready for sex (yet)". The idea that they not only get to decide but are grownups who can be -- well, grownup about it, that they have some responsibility to communicate about what they want and don't want, this is all new. And the boys show up with heads full of misinformation of all kinds. It's slow but it works.

I'd very much like to see that sort of talk going on by jr-high level, tbh. That's when the boys and girls need to start hearing about it, right as they start dating. But I think that sort of thing is especially hard to implement in public schools in very religious areas, where the parents will come storming in at any mention of sex.

In the meantime, if you're with some POF woman whose life is generally s**t and just wants some fairytale romance, and is annoyed because you don't read her mind accurately or don't want to...I think you have to ask yourself what other feats of mindreading this person's going to expect, and whether you really want to be involved with someone who expects that from you.

tarantella64
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28 Aug 2014, 3:51 am

Oh, and I never said that all women don't like "spontaneity" (we've been over this misuse of the word "spontaneous" before, btw). I did say that grabbing people sexually without their consent, based on your estimate that you've read their minds correctly, is wrong, disrespectful, and at times criminal, and that increasingly it's going to get you into real trouble.

Nights_Like_These
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28 Aug 2014, 3:59 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Yet again and again, while you claim that all women don't like spontaneity, I see thread on dating forums like these on the internet:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3087240.aspx

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14607032.aspx

Where the responses of most of the female users are "be spontaneous" - and they make it clear that asking is a turn off! I made once a simple count and like 90% of the female users there want the kiss spontaneous.
It was the case in most of online discussion regarding this subject on every dating site's forum.

So seriously, if this "rule" is bad and has bad consequences, then men aren't the only guilty ones for promoting a such "rule", as you can see a lot of women demand it.

Here an interesting article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27831626

Even among the comments, women and men are objecting against the verbal asking - personally I think shifting to a verbal consent is way better; damn to the signals and games, damn to Soap's "romance" - let's make all things clear, I think people are too brainwashed by romance movies beyond common sense, people should go back to common sense.

StarvingArtist and tarantella, do you know what I advise you to do to take a part in this social change? and to be more effective at it?

I think it would be useful if you both go to forums.plentyoffish.com, and to address the women users there and explaining them how promoting spontaneity in dating is dangerous and bad for them and how it make millions of other women fall victims of harassment. This would be way more effective than fighting the same guys here on wrongplanet.

This "spontaneity kiss rule" will only die if the majority of women expect and demand an "ask first for kiss" rule - as long there are a lot and lot of women like we are seeing in pof, then it won't die.

It would be nice to see how the discussions with them would be. :p GO get em!!

That's all well and good, the point is that not ALL woman want spontaneity, and those people have a right to their boundaries, their bodies do belong to them after all. If you were to make an unwanted advance on the wrong person, there's a good chance that you could find yourself in a lot of trouble, and I'm thinking that a "poll of women on POF told me it was okay" defense might not work out for you.

If the women leaving those comments were being advanced on by someone they didn't want I think they would probably come away feeling very differently about what happened, whether they answered that they prefer spontaneity to the question or not. They're talking about being with someone they're obviously into when they make the comments...

So, I hope the people who prefer to "surprise" (I noticed some of the comments said they like "surprise kisses") others are really really sure about the person they're surprising. lol

In a forum for autistic people, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that at least some of us are capable of misreading those kinds of cues.

And now maybe for once, when I'm done submitting this post, I'll click on the 'stop watching' link and ACTUALLY stop getting e-mails for this thread so that I'm not tempted to click on them anymore! That would be nice! :lol:

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AlexanderDantes
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28 Aug 2014, 5:05 am

tarantella64 wrote:

AlexanderDantes wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

AlexanderDantes wrote:

Are you insinuating that he raped her with his mind? If no physical contact or unrepricated persistent advancements were made, where is the crime? If it made the woman uncomfortable, why did they not inform him directly?

If you want nothing to do with someone, you shouldn't be going on romantic dates or kissing awkwardly, you should cut all communication and not associate with them.

because if you go on a date with someone, you are giving them permission to have sex with you? there is so much wrong with what you've said....so tired of having these same discussions again and again.

agreeing to a date is not the same as agreeing to making out or intercourse--if i go on a date with a guy, that doesn't mean he has the right to push sex on me that i don't want. also, if a person persists with sexual relations and the other person is afraid to fight because he/she might get violent so they just close their eyes and wait for it to be over--that's still rape, even though it's not "violent" by your standards. if a person is unconscious and so doesn't say no or fight because they're unconscious--that's still rape. if a guy tells a girl if she doesn't have sex with him he will hurt someone she cares about, so she goes along and doesn't fight him--that's still rape.

Why meet outside of a group or public environment? Why go to frat parties? Why drink alcohol or take drugs? I do neither. If you are out running, never go alone and be extremely cautious of who you trust. My point is that there are measures you can take to protect yourself and if you're going around, awkwardly kissing someone, you should be sure it is what you want.

AD, do you hear the amount of victim-blaming you're doing here? That's not an invitation to get defensive; it's an invitation to go back over what you've written, phrase by phrase. Look at how you're telling women they should circumscribe their lives in order to be safe, and look at how you're suggesting that if they do not do that, they're partially to blame for their own rapes.

Let's take just one bit of what you've said: never go running alone. Let's also juxtapose that with your insistence that everyone should be fit. Now let's look at some realities. I'm a single working mom, so I run where and when I can. Often I run at odd hours because that's the only time I can fit it in. Other people locally also have lives and our schedules don't often mesh. It's tough enough for most working adults of childrearing age to get any time for themselves for things like exercise, which is why I seldom see people running in groups. So let's not burden them with a pile of rules about buddy systems. If you do that, many fewer will get exercise.

While I run in generally safe areas, there's no guarantee. However, if I'm attacked (and I have been), I am not the person responsible for not attacking me, and I am not the guilty party if someone does attack me. Nor have I done anything foolish by running on a public sidewalk. That's what it's there for. It's not a "burly men only" sidewalk. The guilt and blame rest squarely on the attacker.

You might say: Run at a gym, then. Apart from depriving the woman of the pleasure of fresh air, you've now made fitness much more expensive. A tax, in other words, on being a woman. It also doesn't work. As it happens, when I was attacked, I was attacked in a gym parking lot.

Let's also take a look at this bit about choosing people carefully. You must know that most violence against women, including rape, is committed by family members or other people close to them. Women do not in general marry thinking, "Gosh, he looks violent and rapey, I kinda dig that." They're surprised and horrified when it turns out that the guy they'd trusted -- the guy everyone else also thought was a good guy -- is violent and vicious behind closed doors. So please let us not start blaming women for "picking the wrong men". Again, the blame lies with the attacker, not the woman.

Gotta go do some work, carry on.

Those who prey on the vulnerable and weak are to blame but there are security measures a person which do help with prevention, there's a program called Just yell fire which offers self defense strategies for women

http://www.justyellfire.com

We have to educate people about security, we have to provide people with a means to prevention. If you leave an expensive car unlocked in an neighborhood, it is a lot more likely to be stolen over a car that is securely and firmly locked in a garage. Criminals prey on those that they can exploit and the easiest target, making yourself less of a target decreases your target but that isn't putting the blame on the victim, it is simply providing and educating the victim about prevention.

Also run in public areas, never run the same route twice and be sure to carry a whistle or even find running partners at a club.

Last edited by AlexanderDantes on 28 Aug 2014, 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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28 Aug 2014, 5:08 am

Nights_Like_These wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Yet again and again, while you claim that all women don't like spontaneity, I see thread on dating forums like these on the internet:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3087240.aspx

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14607032.aspx

Where the responses of most of the female users are "be spontaneous" - and they make it clear that asking is a turn off! I made once a simple count and like 90% of the female users there want the kiss spontaneous.
It was the case in most of online discussion regarding this subject on every dating site's forum.

So seriously, if this "rule" is bad and has bad consequences, then men aren't the only guilty ones for promoting a such "rule", as you can see a lot of women demand it.

Here an interesting article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27831626

Even among the comments, women and men are objecting against the verbal asking - personally I think shifting to a verbal consent is way better; damn to the signals and games, damn to Soap's "romance" - let's make all things clear, I think people are too brainwashed by romance movies beyond common sense, people should go back to common sense.

StarvingArtist and tarantella, do you know what I advise you to do to take a part in this social change? and to be more effective at it?

I think it would be useful if you both go to forums.plentyoffish.com, and to address the women users there and explaining them how promoting spontaneity in dating is dangerous and bad for them and how it make millions of other women fall victims of harassment. This would be way more effective than fighting the same guys here on wrongplanet.

This "spontaneity kiss rule" will only die if the majority of women expect and demand an "ask first for kiss" rule - as long there are a lot and lot of women like we are seeing in pof, then it won't die.

It would be nice to see how the discussions with them would be. :p GO get em!!

Did you read all my post? I am not posting these links to justify or to defend the surprise kiss, but I am showing that there are plenty of women who are also part of promoting it; hence part of this problem.

Let it be clear, I am on your side.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 28 Aug 2014, 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Spiderpig
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28 Aug 2014, 5:43 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

You have to admit the ?spontaneous-kiss rule? is a great way of practising sexual selection: ?Kiss me without knowing if I?ll welcome it, because otherwise I?ll be disgusted at your wimpiness and not give you the time of the day. If I turn out to like you?which I probably knew already, but, of course, I didn?t tell you so you had to take the risk?everything is okay unless we break up; then I might choose to deny my previous consent and get some satisfaction screwing your life. If I don?t like you in the first place, you?ll pay dearly for thinking an exquisite female like me might be interested in such a worthless male as the one you are. I?m deeply insulted by your arrogance and till the end of your sorry life you?ll rue the day you took that initiative I of course steered clear of warning you against. F*ck you!?

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The_Face_of_Boo
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28 Aug 2014, 5:48 am

Spiderpig wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

You have to admit the ?spontaneous-kiss rule? is a great way of practicing sexual selection: ?Kiss me without knowing if I?ll welcome it, because otherwise I?ll be disgusted at your wimpiness and not give you the time of the day. If I turn out to like you?which I probably knew already, but, of course, I didn?t tell you so you had to take the risk?everything is okay unless we break up; then I might choose to deny my previous consent and get some satisfaction screwing your life. If I don?t like you in the first place, you?ll pay dearly for thinking an exquisite female like me might be interested in such a worthless male as the one you are. I?m deeply insulted by your arrogance and till the end of your sorry life you?ll rue the day you took that initiative I of course steered clear of warning you against. F*ck you!?

Yes....yes, you're right! I would choose to not reproduce with a such woman. :lol:

TallyMan
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28 Aug 2014, 8:20 am

AlexanderDantes wrote:

I agree with your post. We shouldn't blame victims for being the victims of crime but there are things people can do to minimize the risk of them becoming a victim. In an ideal world (Eutopia) which does not exist; there would be no need to lock your car doors or to lock your house; there wouldn't be any need for any locks anywhere. Internet forums and online banking sites would not need passwords to access them; cash points wouldn't need pin codes to withdraw money. Anyone, man, woman, child, old person should all be able to walk freely anywhere in any town at any time of day or night without fear of being mugged, assaulted, abducted or raped. Women would be able to leave their purse on a bar table while they visit the rest room; or trust strangers not to put roofies in their unattended drinks. There would be no need for any police or criminal justice system and even no need for any armed forces.

However, this isn't Eutopia. Crime does exist. People need to take precautions for their own safety and to safeguard their possessions. In some venues, streets or towns crime is very prolific and it is sensible to avoid those places if possible or not travel there alone or take other precautions. I'm a large guy with martial arts training and capable of handling myself in a fight, but there are places in the world I wouldn't venture on my own. There are whole countries I'll likely never set foot in because there is a significant risk of being kidnapped or killed. None of this cautionary behaviour shifts the blame onto the victims of crime; it is merely common good sense to try to reduce the odds of becoming a victim of crime.

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tarantella64
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28 Aug 2014, 10:03 am

AD, you're painfully naive -- and, at this point, inexcusably so, because there's been plenty of talk here and there's plenty of info elsewhere online -- about what sexual assault is and how to stop it. "Yelling fire" is not a solution. Whistles are useless, jesus. People do not come running to your aid when you blow a whistle. Or when you're screaming your bloody head off.

Once again, you guys have made the signal -- and misogynist -- error of putting the responsibility for avoiding rape and assault on women, when that responsibility belongs on men*. But people do not teach men what rape is or how not to do it. They don't make it clear to their sons that if they do such things -- and there's a whole lot of 'em who do -- they will no longer have families or futures. They blame women for going running alone.

When is the last time any of these people talked to a group of men about what rape, assault, and harassment are, how not to do it, and how to support women in going after the men who do it?

TallyMan
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28 Aug 2014, 10:36 am

tarantella64 wrote:

Once again, you guys have made the signal -- and misogynist -- error of putting the responsibility for avoiding rape and assault on women, when that responsibility belongs on men

You are talking theoretically. Sure men should be better educated; and of course the responsibility rests with men; they are the one's who do the crime. However, it is you who are naive if you think women should throw caution to the wind and not at least try to minimise the risk of being raped, or avoid situations and behaviour that puts them at high risk. I don't know what your family circumstances are, but if you had a teenage daughter who you'd already said could attend a party where lots of her school friends would be going - including boys. Are you telling me that you would not give her any advice if she wanted to wear the following T-shirt to the party?

Any further advice on her intended plan to walk home alone after the party, late at night through this neighbourhood:

Or would you say nothing, because it is her right to wear what she likes and go where she likes without being raped?

Any parent would (hopefully) advise their daughter against wearing that T-shirt and against walking through that neighbourhood on her own, especially at night and especially wearing that T-shirt! It isn't victim blaming or misogyny; it is giving advice that may help prevent their daughter becoming a victim of rape. It is showing common sense in the face of danger.

So what would you do? The party is tonight. Your daughter is wearing that T-shirt and ready to step out of the door, where a female family friend is ready to drive her to the party (no lift is available to bring her home though). Well? What would you say to her and why?

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starvingartist
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28 Aug 2014, 1:22 pm

TallyMan wrote:

tarantella64 wrote:

Once again, you guys have made the signal -- and misogynist -- error of putting the responsibility for avoiding rape and assault on women, when that responsibility belongs on men

Any further advice on her intended plan to walk home alone after the party, late at night through this neighbourhood:

you think most women, by the age of 12-13, don't already know all the "tips" of how to stay safe? it's not like the girls haven't been warned enough and we just need to keep telling them to be cautious and then rape won't happen, because guess what--girls and women get told to be careful and cautious ALL THE TIME and yet rape still happens. but i guess if we just keep warning them to be cautious, that will somehow make rape not happen anymore because eventually all the women will be locked up in their homes and never go out alone and then the proliferation of rapists will have no one to rape and so will shrivel up and die, and that;s how the whole problem will be solved. maybe while we're at it, we should try convincing the women to complete cover themselves when they do go out (only in groups or escorted by males of course, for their own safety)--that for sure will prevent rape. wait, this sounds oddly familiar, has someone thought of this before? surely if they have, there's no such thing as rape where they've implemented those rules of "caution" for women.

oh yeah that's right--and they have no violence against women, right? yup, the ladies just need to learn to be more cautious, that's all--then we will live in utopic paradise. :roll:

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